September 29, 1998

Bob Novak: Lou, it's not just that African-Americans are Bill Clinton's most loyal supporters, now he's being called our country's first black President. Really? Is this good for blacks? Is it good for the country? We'll ask a broadcasting entrepreneur and a former presidential candidate, both African-Americans, next in the Crossfire.

Announcer: He's from a single-parent household, he was born poor, he's working-class, he plays the saxophone, and he loves McDonald's. Author Toni Morrison says that's why African-Americans should stand by Bill Clinton. Is she right? Live from Washington, Crossfire. On the left, Bill Press. On the right, Robert Novak. In the Crossfire, former Republican presidential candidate and radio talk show host, Alan Keyes. And Chairman and CEO of Black Entertainment Television, Bob Johnson.

Host: Good evening, welcome to Crossfire. In his battle for moral renewal and political survival, President Clinton's picked up some key support from American blacks. Reverend Jesse Jackson is one of his spiritual advisors. Congresswoman Maxine Waters has pledged support of the Congressional Black Caucus. Anita Hill says what Clinton did is nowhere as bad as what she accused Clarence Thomas of doing, and in this week's New Yorker, novelist Tony Morrison argues that Clinton deserves the support of blacks, because although white, he is like, really black.

And they're not alone. According to CNN USA Today Gallup's weekend poll, ninety-percent of American blacks approve of Clinton's job as President, compared to just fifty-nine percent of white Americans. Of course, not all blacks agree, otherwise there'd be no Crossfire. But there is. Does Clinton deserve support from blacks? If so, why? Or are blacks just supporting Bill Clinton because he's a Democrat? Bob?

Bob Novak: Bob Johnson, I don't get stunned easily, but reading the New Yorker, it knocked me out. And let me read you this quote by Tony Morrison, one of America's distinguished writers. This is talking about Bill Clinton: "This is our first black President, blacker than any actual black person who could ever be elected in our children's lifetime. After all, Clinton displays almost every trope of blackness--single-parent household, born poor, working-class, saxophone-playing, McDonald's and junk food-loving boy from Arkansas." Is that why the blacks support him?

Bob Johnson: Well, I think Toni's a great writer, and she's exercising her poetic license to express her emotion about President Clinton, but she's absolutely right. President Clinton has been the absolute best President for African-Americans. His policies, his appointments, his commitment to African-American issues has been absolutely on point--and as a result of that, he has gotten the ninety-plus percent support from African-Americans, whether they are in business or in politics, and I expect it to continue.

Bob Novak: But she says more than that. She says he's a black person. Do you believe that?

Bob Johnson: She's a writer, you know, I'm giving her writer's license.

Bob Novak: Alright, and something else she said that frankly, in all seriousness, it kind of disturbed me. She wrote that this is the way blacks in America think: "No matter how smart you are, how hard you work, how much coin you earn for us, we will put you in your place or put you out of the place you have somehow, albeit with our permission, achieved. You will be fired from your job, sent away in disgrace, and who knows, maybe sentenced and jailed to boot." Now, Bob Johnson--who is much richer than Bill Press and I, and much more successful--you don't think that, do you?

Bob Johnson: Well, I think what Toni's captured is black people have this feeling that no matter how much they achieve or how much they accomplish, society is out to pull them back, and I think they identify with President Clinton. He's an underdog at this particular time, they identify with his commitment to Black Americans, and they think that the Republican Party is trying to snatch that away.

Bob Novak: Alright, they snatch that away, and I want to give you one more quote now from Toni Morrison. This is a Toni Morrison retrospective: "This is slaughter-gate, a sustained, bloody, arrogant coup d'etat. The President is being stolen from us, and the people know it." So that's the black people's presidency, is that right?

Bob Johnson: I think so. Black people are saying here's a President who appointed more cabinet officials that are black, more sub-cabinet officials, went to Africa for the first time on a historic trip, dealt with issues like welfare reform, dealt with issues--and first of all made the economy work better for everybody, which means more black people go to work. Here's a President who's been at every point supportive of black issues and been involved culturally, socially in the black community. They're now saying we'll make November 3rd a referendum on President Clinton, and I think it's gonna mean blacks are gonna come out and vote in droves, and I hope they do.

Host: Alan Keyes, let me ask you, I mean you've got to admit, I mean you're in politics, you've been in politics, sixty-percent, seventy-percent's pretty good. Ninety-percent is an outstanding approval rating for the job Bill Clinton is doing. I would assume Alan, that you're one of the ten-percent. Why would you, how would you explain that ninety-percent figure?

Dr. Keyes: I don't try to explain figures that come out of these polls, because I don't accept the polls. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that these phony polls reflect anything that's really going on in the country. The electoral polls are bad enough, where you actually have some test to compare the polls to on election day. These phony opinion polls are like the oracles in Ancient Greece, and anybody who pays attention to them will be getting as reliable a response as the ancient pagans used to get from the oracles. They're phony, they exist only in order to manipulate expectations--and today the expectation that they want to manipulate is the expectation that, sadly, seems to be confirmed by the brain-washed step'n'fetchits of moral depravity like Toni Morrison. That is to say, an adulterous, lying President, who has betrayed his marriage vows, his oath to the country, who has sullied the Oval Office with the unbridled inability to control his lust for the sake of his promises and his country--she says that that's typically black?

Apparently she didn't know my father. He was a soldier for 33 years, and never disrespected his oath. He was somebody who raised his family and his children to respect the truth, and beat us if we didn't respect the truth, if he thought we deserved it. He was somebody--and my mother--somebody who actually respected God and had faith in God, and believed that His commandments were something that you should respect. That is typically black, as far as I'm concerned, and [there are] many other God-fearing, law-abiding, disciplined, family, hard-working black people in this country. An adulterous, lying, manipulative President is not black in my view.

Bob Johnson: Typically black also is forgiveness. Looking into the heart of a person and saying this person has admitted he's done something wrong, something very wrong, and then apologized for it, and is out to make amends, not only to the country but to his family and everything else. But also typically black is when our friends get in trouble, no matter what the cost, no matter what the problem, we stick with them. And Black America is gonna stick with Bill Clinton.

Dr. Keyes: No, no. Right now liberal Black Americans are sticking with this man at the expense of validating precisely the kind of behavior that, sadly speaking, has destroyed black families and black children in the course of the last twenty and thirty years. What we should be telling black males is you don't get away with this kind of an abusive attitude towards sex, even if you're the President of the United States. We will hold you accountable. That would be great for the black community. If we could get that one point across, we'd save more children than we would save in any other way.

Bill Press: Let me just ask one follow-up question, because I haven't heard any American, black or white, defend Bill Clinton's misbehavior in the White House. But what I have heard people say, and Bob mentioned some of these, if you look down at Affirmative Action or at welfare reform, or at loans for college kids, or at family medical leave, there are a lot of policies that a lot of Americans have benefited from, including a lot of Black Americans. If so, shouldn't they stick with the man who helped them out once he got in the White House? Isn't that loyalty, Alan?

Dr. Keyes: The notion that you accept any kind of policies . . .

Bill Press: (interrupting) Any what?

Dr. Keyes: Any kind of policy, I don't care how good it is--the notion that you're going to let that take precedence over the moral requirements of your community is not just an incorrect and nonsensical notion, it is a deeply wicked notion. It is the kind of notion that in the end leads you to say, "Adolph Hitler's alright by me, he made the trains run on time."

Bob Johnson: Sheesh, I mean let's not go too far, come on!

Bob Novak: Bob Johnson, I want to take you up on this question of sticking by your own. I think one of the really distinguished African-Americans in America today is Clarence Thomas. He was accused of doing things far less heinous than President Clinton. Not ever accused of touching anybody, of saying bad things, he never admitted it. No proof of it, no evidence, no corroboration, no substantiation. Did you, did the black community stick by its own then?

Bob Johnson: Bob, if you go back and look at the polls, when Clarence Thomas was having his hearings before the Senate, the rank and file black voter supported Clarence Thomas. Now you had some elements of black leadership who didn't support him, but the rank and file voters were proud of Clarence Thomas, he had made it to the top, and they supported him. So what I'm saying to you is when you get down to mom-and-pop African-Americans, they believe in supporting leaders who show a commitment to their cause.

Bob Novak: But when you find black leaders who don't even want them to speak, a Supreme Court Justice, is that supporting your own?

Bob Johnson: That's another issue. I don't think you can hold up Clarence Thomas's policies and his votes in the Supreme Court . . .

Bob Novak: (interrupting) Oh, it's not his morality, it's his policies.

Bob Johnson: And what Black America is saying is that we are not making a judgment on President Clinton's morality. He has admitted he's done something that most of us would consider to be wrong. And he has asked for forgiveness, he's asking for his ministers, he's asking for his family, his wife, he's asking for the country. Now, he's done that. What we're now saying is this man has done so much for African-Americans, and by the same token for the country, therefore let's move on, let's give him a chance to continue to lead.

Press/Novak: Alan, you wanted to jump in?

Dr. Keyes: If you let Bill Clinton get away with this depraved behavior--if the abusive attitude toward women, toward marital fidelity, toward sexual decency that he represents is validated by this country--then you will complete the destruction of the black family and the black community. The greatest problem that we have in the black community today is the inability of SOME males to respect women and to treat marital vows and sexual relations with the kind of sacredness that they require. And you want to support a man who validates everything that's wrong?

Bob Johnson: Alan, that's an irrelevant issue, has nothing to do with Bill Clinton's presidency.

Bob Novak: Okay, we're gonna have to take a break, and when we come back, we're gonna explore whether it's healthy for the black community and for America to have this overwhelming support for the President, in contradiction to the rest of the country.

(Commercial break)

Bob Novak: Welcome back to Crossfire. A constant in President Clinton's crisis is the support, affection and loyalty for him from African-Americans. We're talking to Bob Johnson, Chairman and CEO of Black Entertainment Television, and to Alan Keyes, radio talk show host and former Republican presidential candidate. Bill?

Bill Press: Alan, I was impressed with your passionate denunciation of what you called Bill Clinton's depraved behavior. I would assume you share equal outrage and are ready to express equal outrage for Dan Burton and Helen Chenowith and Henry Hyde as members of Congress?

Dr. Keyes: I don't think they're at all comparable. I think, in point of fact, the abuse of the American people, of their trust and confidence represented by Bill Clinton's systematic, lying manipulation of the public--his continued effort to assault America's conscience in a systematic fashion for the sake of two things, his lust and passion, and his power. These things are reprehensible, and they actually are an assault on the fundamental requirements of integrity in our public life that go all the way back to the Founders and everything they said was required in public office.

Bill Press: In other words, you confirm what I heard a talk show host in San Francisco say the other night, that when Democrats do it it's an impeachable offense, when Republicans do it it's a youthful indiscretion. Isn't that a double standard?

Dr. Keyes: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, if you want to get into all the details, there was in those respects--nobody's gonna excuse the immorality of adultery and affairs, and so forth and so on. But when you have a President of the United States in violation of his Oath of Office, systematically--he takes an oath. Let me remember, he takes an oath . . .

Bill Press: (interrupting) He takes an Oath of Office not to cheat on his wife?

Dr. Keyes: . . . he takes an Oath of Office faithfully to execute the laws, and then he commits perjury, which is a direct assault on the whole process of law. He takes an oath of office that requires that the people of this country have trust and confidence in his moral judgment. And let's remember who he is--he's not the President of a widget factory, he's a man who will make life-or-Death decisions about people in the armed forces and around the world.

Bill Press: And so members of Congress can cheat on their wives and nobody cares, and Alan Keyes says, "Good for them."

Dr. Keyes: The problem is you've tried to make this about sex, you and your Democrat buddies . . .

Bill Press: You have!

Dr. Keyes: I'm sorry, this is about the lack of integrity, just as they said about Kelly Flynn.

Bill Press: Read the report.

Dr. Keyes: Do you remember what they said about Kelly Flynn?

Bob Novak: Alright, alright, alright.

Dr. Keyes: It wasn't her adultery, it was her lack of integrity that got her kicked out.

Bob Novak: Bob Johnson, my good friend Alan Keyes doesn't like polls, but we pay for these polls, so I've got to talk about them. (laughter) Uh, the poll by--what happened to it? The poll by USA Today/Gallup: "Should Congress censure Clinton?" Whites, 63-31, yes. African-Americans, 57-37, no. But I'll give you something we didn't pay for I like even better. Pugh Center, you know the Pugh Center Poll? Black people--72% like him, they like him. You know how much it is for the white people? 27%. Isn't this the OJ Simpson thing all over again?

Bob Johnson: Not at all. I mean, African-Americans--and President Clinton's a good friend of mine, and he is a person who is so committed to bringing this country together, black and white together for positive reasons, and African-Americans feel that, they know that, and they will absolutely support this President because they know that if there's anyone looking out for their interests in government today, it's the Clinton Administration. And they're not going to desert that. African-Americans are not stupid. They're not gonna run away from their own self-interests, and for that reason Clinton will always have their support.

Bob Novak: Alright, let me give you a contradictory view. I think this is part of the overwhelming Democratic loyalty that, I mean African-American loyalty to the Democratic Party. And I have been told by a lot of people, black and white, over the years that it would be a healthier for the country if blacks were more in play between the two parties. It would be a lot healthier for the Republicans, but it would be even more healthy for the Democrats. Do you disagree with that?

Bob Johnson: No, I don't disagree with the fact that black people shouldn't be taken for granted by either party, either the Republican Party or the Democratic Party.

Bob Novak: That isn't exactly what I said.

Bob Johnson: I agree with that point. But until the Republicans step up to the plate and offer something credible for black Americans to look at as an alternative, we're gonna support our friends. You know, you make your friends before you need 'em, and you stick with your friends.

Bob Novak: Now, I just want to ask you one thing. There was the Sister Solja incident, Al Sharpton says there was a Sister Solja incident--President supported the Republican welfare plan, he got rid of a black surgeon general of the United States, he kicked Lani Guanier out the door. Why do you forgive him all these things and you don't forgive the Republicans anything?

Bob Johnson: Well, because the President, for everything you recited, the President has, one, appointed more cabinets and sub-cabinet officials who are black who affect government policy every day, Ron Brown at commerce, Alexis Herman at Labor, Hazel O'Leary at Energy. President Clinton has gone to Africa, the first time a sitting President goes to Africa to try to bind that . . .

Bob Novak: That helps the black people here?

Bob Johnson: Absolutely!

Bob Novak: I didn't know that.

Bob Johnson: It's no different from when he goes to Poland and help the Polish-Americans, he goes to Israel and helps Jewish-Americans. It's the same thing.

Bob Novak: I didn't know that, either.

Bill Press: Alan, you don't believe in polls, but there's one poll I don't think you can deny the authenticity of. In 1992, Bill Clinton was elected with 83% of African-American support. In 1996, re-elected with 84% of African-American support. Now, it was no secret. Everybody knew Bill Clinton had a history of a philanderer when he was running for President. When he ran for re-election, don't you think blacks supported him because, again, they agreed with his policies, and that's really the only test when you're voting?

Dr. Keyes: The notion that you put policy above moral decency is a notion so destructive of decent conscience that I would have to tell you, anybody who advocates it strikes me as deeply immoral. And that's the attitude, by the way--if I may speak from the point of view of the history of African-Americans--it was precisely that willingness to put profit, greed, selfish interest and money above moral principle that sustained slavery, that sustained racist segregation, that sustained all of the things that oppressed black people in this country. And until people in this country realized that you should not sacrifice moral principle and conscience for anything, and whites stopped making the excuse, "We can't get rid of the plantations, we need the money . . ."

Bob Johnson: Alan, to imply that black folks were aiding and abetting slavery is the most atrocious misreading of history and reality, and you know it.

Dr. Keyes: That's not what I said, and you know it.

Bob Johnson: You basically said for black people to accept immorality was abetting slavery.

Bob Novak: I want to get one more question into Bob. Betty Curie is a black woman who is the President's secretary. If you read the report, she was used by the President, she was betrayed by the President. You say you're loyal to your own--doesn't that make you mad the way the President treated this church-going black woman?

Bob Johnson: The President is hurt by that, Betty Curie is hurt by that, and I guarantee you Betty Curie has forgiven the President for that hurt.

Bill Press: Alright gentlemen, and we forgive you and thank you for coming. Alan Keyes, thanks for being here on Crossfire. Bob Johnson, thanks for being here. And Bob Novak . . .

Bob Novak: You forgive me, too?

Bill Press: I forgive him, too. Two white guys, we'll be back with our closing comments.