August 28, 1998
(Fox News)

Alan Colmes: Ambassador Keyes, when you ran for President you made morality a central issue of your campaign. But I think a lot of people feel they didn't elect Bill Clinton to be their moral leader. That he's more of a CEO than someone we're supposed to look up to. That's why we have families. The President's job is to get the business of the country done, in my view, and not be the moral leader of the country. And that's where you and I might disagree, sir.

Alan Keyes: Well, I think that that's an absurd view. I was reminded of this when the President bombed Sudan and Afghanistan with the cruise missiles. Every time you use military force you have made the most serious moral judgment a human being can make--a moral judgment that involves the risking and taking of human life. To entrust that judgment to a man whose moral conscience and moral character we cannot trust and deeply distrust--in fact, which the majority of Americans think, in fact, is non-existent risks plunging this nation into the kind of wickedness that got the German people in trouble, and that marred this century with awesome tragedy. To treat the presidency like it's the job of a CEO is to forget the life-and-death issues that a President necessarily deals with and that cannot be abstracted from moral judgment . . .

. . .

Sean Hannity: Dr. Keyes, if I can go back to you. We're dealing with the issue with Congressman Fattah over a President . . . You know all the reports now is that Ken Starr's report is going to have a mountain of evidence, multiple perjuries, obstruction of justice, you heard a Congressman say that's not enough to remove him from office. Your thoughts?

Keyes: Well, I think that's also against every historic precedent. If you go back to the Nixon era, it was precisely these things of which Nixon was accused and precisely these things that led him to resign. And if we start applying a different standard to individuals because they're President or because they're popular then we will divide the country into two groups: the popular and powerful, and those others who will be subjected to them. That's not equal justice under law. That's a destruction of our society--

Hannity: Do you see, Dr. Keyes, any way that he can survive? I personally believe, you look at Pat Schroeder and Sam Nunn, and a lot of other Democrats now coming out against the President, Ben Jones who's here to my left, suggesting the President should resign. Are the Democrats going to be the ones who ultimately, before the election, when the report is given, insist that this man leave office because they don't want to run with him?

Keyes: I think that's exactly the case. Sadly, from my point of view, I think that the Republican leadership has been kind of behind hand, in terms of helping the American people to understand the serious implications of this moral crisis in the presidency, but now I think the Democrats will have a strong incentive, out of political expediency of their own, to try to deal with this in some way that prevents what I think is the emerging serious damage that could be done--not just in the election, but to the party overall, by this crisis.

. . .

Colmes: Ambassador Alan Keyes, host of the radio show "America's Wake Up Call," and a former Republican Presidential candidate . . . Dr. Keyes, you compare this to Watergate, and quite frankly I don't know that I buy the comparison to the degree that you suggested. We had a known burglary. We had known cover-up. We knew that we had Richard Nixon using the FBI and CIA--one to cover up the other. I don't know how you compare it on that level to what's going on here.

Keyes: I don't know either, because I think that what Bill Clinton has done is far worse.

Colmes: How do you say that?

Keyes: As David Broder argued the other day, at least Nixon had some kind of policy purpose in what he did. What we see in Bill Clinton is simply an abuse of power for the sake of his personal lust, lying to cover it up for the sake of his personal ambition. As the Americans for Democratic Action pointed out today, this was an abuse of power in the workplace because of his position vis-a-vis Lewinsky. It was an abuse of his colleagues in the cabinet and the government offices throughout the government who spread his lie. And it was an abuse of the American people. And I think we just have to look at those facts. We also have seen, by the way, that in attacking others who were simply standing up for the truth they also were willing to violate government rules with respect to files. Chuck Colson went to jail for that kind of thing and these people have done it routinely to attack Clinton's enemies.

. . .

Keyes: I just wanted to point out that if you go down the articles of impeachment that were drawn up against Richard Nixon, the exact things that were done were misleading the American people, lying to investigators, abusing colleagues in order to perpetuate the lie. You're trying to remake history, but Nixon, the articles that were drawn up against him--with the help of Hillary Rodham Clinton--are identical to the things that Bill Clinton has done.

. . .

Keyes: I just think that that statement kind of falsifies the record. Ken Starr didn't go after Clinton on this. Information was brought to him--when it was brought to him he had a legal responsibility not to ignore it; he did not. He went to Janet Reno--the President's appointee--he went to her, and she authorized him to pursue this. She could have done something else. And if Clinton and Janet Reno feels that he's gone above and beyond and done something wrong, they have the legal authority to fire him.

. . .

Hannity: Ambassador Keyes, I want to go to you and I want to delve into the issue of the scorched-earth policy of this administration. The releasing of Linda Tripp's confidential files. The war against Ken Starr. The smearing and the and besmirching of anyone who disagrees with them. And the most recent example, the leaking to the number one Clinton sycophant, I guess you might say, is Geraldo Rivera. This besmirching of Mr. McHale, Paul McHale, a Democratic congressman who called for the resignation of the President. These tactics . . . and it turned out to be false--what are your thoughts on this? Is this not scary--the power of government going after individuals who dissent against them?

Keyes: I think it's scary, and I think it's one of the greater aspects of wrongdoing in this. People talk about it--"it's his private business," and all of that, but this is not a victimless crime. They have abused government power to go after these people. In a moral sense, of course, they violate one of the fundamental tenets of all morality: "thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." And in pursuing it do so in a way that has no respect of persons, no respect of the rules, no respect of law--going after people with the mentality of character assassination, as Congressman McHale said, which is the same thuggish mentality that would eventually send out people to destroy physical life, so you destroy life and livelihood that is based on reputation.

Fattah [trying to explain away the White House leak]: . . . this supposed leak from the White House . . .

Keyes: Come, come on.

Fattah: Which we don't even know to be true.

Keyes: This was done. Rivera, unless you're going to call him a blatant liar--which is OK by me, but he said it was a source close to the President. And if it was a source close to the President and they are truly apologetic and don't subscribe to these tactics, they should find this source, and fire this source. Otherwise they are, in fact, aiding and abetting this.

. . .

Ben Jones [former Democratic congressman from Georgia--and Cooter from "Dukes of Hazzard"]: (to Colmes--raising voice) I don't know how many times I have to tell you that he went into a court and he lied. That is perjury.

Colmes: About what?

Jones: About--it doesn't matter if it was jaywalking.

Keyes: Excuse me. He lied about his abuse of power. He lied about the fact the he violated the regulations he himself has set down for federal employees with respect to superior-inferior relationships in the federal government. He lied, he lied about the fact that he besmirched his office with conduct unbecoming a President of the United States. And he lied in order . . .

Colmes: Dr. Keyes . . . I agree with you . . .

Keyes: He lied in order to--hold it (Colmes was still trying to interrupt)--he lied in order to try to cover up his own . . .

Colmes: Dr. Keyes . . .

Keyes: He lied in order to try to prevent damage to his own political career and ambitions. That's why he lied--it wasn't about sex.

Colmes: I agree with you that the behavior was reprehensible . . .

Jones: Dr. Keyes can talk the chicken off the bone.

Colmes: Yes, he certainly could.

. . .

Colmes: Dr. Keyes, Alan Dershowitz says that the biggest misconception is that this is a factual report that Ken Starr is preparing, which will be given some evidentiary weight. He says it's a one-sided prosecutor basing this on un-cross-examined and unchallenged evidence. The report is like an indictment--it should be given no weight whatsoever. That it's grand jury testimony of bought witnesses, some of whom are admitted liars. The people on Ken Starr's side are not exactly paragons of moral virtue, are they?

Keyes: I don't see how any of the questions raised about Ken Starr have yet been shown to have any merit--that's step number one. Step number two, of course it's like an indictment because it's supposed to be the basis for an indictment. Impeachment is the indictment process--the Senate is the trial process. So, what is to be done in the House of Representatives is to discover whether sufficient evidence of these abuses exist to warrant a trial on the merit. And that trial is to take place in the Senate of the United States. That's the process established by the Constitution. So what Dershowitz says may or may not be true of the character of the Starr report, but it's also irrelevant. Because it's supposed to be an indictment process.

. . .

Hannity: Dr. Keyes, I want to go back to you--I want to ask you this one thing. Now the President and the spinsters are out there floating this trial balloon that the President--he's going to go back to the American people and he's going to give another speech probably orchestrated by Harry Thomason the Hollywood producer here. And I'm sure it's going to be focus -grouped and I'm sure they're going to have all the different tests to see if they're saying exactly the right thing. Isn't that all part of the deceit, the manipulation, the lack of honestly and trustworthiness that we need to have in a President, especially if we have any type of foreign policy crisis like we recently have?

Keyes: Well, I think it is. I think one of the problems right now with this whole discussion--and I keep sitting here thinking about it trying to figure it out--how do you get it across? In weak piping times of peace, as Shakespeare put it, you can pretend that the President is like the president of a widget company. In times of crisis, in times of war, in times of economic difficulty we must trust the President. We must trust his judgment because he stands alone, at times making decisions on a very personal basis that are a result of his character, his experience, his judgment, all of which have proven to be false, manipulative, lying, and untrustworthy in Bill Clinton. The notion that we can afford to have this man in the presidency one minute is only based on the fact that we will not be in such a crisis in the next minute. But if we are, he does not have and does not merit the confidence of our people. This is a very dangerous situation for our country and it is Congress's responsibility to bring it to an end as quickly as possible.

. . .

Fattah: I think those people who are expecting the Congress to impeach Bill Clinton are wishing on a fairy tale. That is not going to happen. And that's why . . .

Jones: Wait, wait--you're supposed to be an impartial juror now. You haven't heard the evidence yet . . .

Fattah: Excuse me, I was trying to say something . . . What I was saying is that that is not going to happen. The American people have spoken very, very clearly--they don't want--by 70% or more . . .

Jones: That's absurd, if you are going to depend on popularity polls, what happens when those popularity polls change and when he's unpopular? Three weeks from now, say?

Keyes: But Congressman, Congressman, Congressman, I especially can't understand how you can make that argument. In 1954, most of the American people would have been against integration. In the 1850s and 60s, most of the American people would have been in favor of letting slavery run rampant. We have had times when the majority of the people in this country has to remember they don't establish the principles of right and wrong. They are established, as our Declaration of Independence says, by the will of the Creator, God--and we must, all of us, respect that will. And one of those things that I think we have to keep in mind is that integrity is not subject to a vote. It is either there or it is not and when it is not the American people are precisely the ones who will suffer if it's the presidency that is in question.

. . .

Keyes: Well the President's not going to be removed, if he is, until he is tried. And that trial will require that the facts be presented, arguments be made, and that the representatives of the people and the people themselves come to a judgment. And it's going to be needed in this case if we are going to clean our house.