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Radio interview
Alan Keyes on Faith2Action with Janet Folger
August 24, 2007

JANET FOLGER, HOST: There is a move — people around the country have been praying and fasting. Groups around the nation have been uniting, and the presidential candidates have confirmed there will be a Values Voter Presidential Debate on Monday, September 17, in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, where the pro-family leaders will ask the presidential candidates the questions that matter most to you, the values voters — the largest voting bloc in America.

Leaders like Phyllis Schlafly, Don Wildmon, Paul Weyrich, Judge Roy Moore, Rick Scarborough, and Matt Staver will be joined by more than forty of the nation's most influential groups. Christians and social conservatives will be asking the questions that matter the most. I ask you to continue to pray for the debate. Oh my goodness, the details that need to be hammered out and taken care of! We need God. I said it up front that if God is the only one that can pull this off, He is the only one that's gonna get the glory when He does.

We've already seen miracle after miracle, from the donations that came in to reserve the auditorium, to CNN backing down, to fees that have been waived and extraordinary favor we have with other good news as well — Sky Angel is going to be carrying this debate live. The American Family Association will be streaming it live on the Internet, through all the websites you know and love, including AFA and the Values Voter site,

As we're updating that information, we're going to be including stuff for the home parties, which include — well, there's a Jeopardy game, to find out who said what. See how your — test your candidate knowledge about where those candidates stand. It's not a partisan event, but the Democrats didn't want to come.

Let me introduce our next guest. He is the — he's been called the most articulate man in the pro-family movement, and I cannot disagree with that characterization. We welcome from RenewAmerica, Dr. Alan Keyes. Thanks, so much.

ALAN KEYES: Hi, how are you? Good to be with you, Janet.

FOLGER: Glad that you're here, and I'm glad that you're on the team. As we look to the future, we're looking to, well, a godly leader who will fill the White House, and we're looking for answers to the questions we have. But right now, if you'll join me, Dr. Keyes, I just want to take, as we have been doing since the forty days before the event — since a couple of weeks ago now — those of us who have been fasting for something, and we want to see some mountains move, and we just need to appeal to God to move them, because He's the one that can. So let's just pray for a minute, if you would join me.

KEYES: Amen.

FOLGER: Father, I just lift this debate to you. And, God, I pray that you would bring every candidate that you want to this debate. I pray for your hand-selected national leaders and your hand-written questions, that you would guide and direct to be asked, at this venue. I pray for Sky Angel, for Inspiration Network, and Daystar, and GOD TV, and pray that you would bring more networks that would air this live.

I pray, Father, for the television production of this event — a monumental undertaking for Faith2Action, but it's nothing for you. And so, Father, I thank you that the American Family Association is weighing in, and helping out, and overseeing this end of it. What a gift! What an answered prayer.

God, I pray for those that will be participating as VIPs, sponsors, and underwriters. I pray for the delegates who will be participating in the straw poll, for all the volunteers, for all the holes that need to be filled in, the media, the press releases that need to go out, the public service announcements — you know, the details that you know better than I.

I pray, God, that you would now pave the way — that you would inspire more people to pray for what I pray will be a historic event that mobilizes and equips your people to elect a righteous leader to change the course of our nation back to you. I pray in Jesus' name, the Name above all names. Amen.

KEYES: Amen.

FOLGER: Thank you, doctor. I'm so grateful for all that you've done over the years. There in South Dakota, there you were standing at Mount Rushmore, being a part of the solution, instead of just raging your hand against all the things that the bad guys are doing, the people that don't like us, the people that are trying to silence us.

I believe that we need some proactive movement, and I know that's the way you think. Just fill us in, if you would. What have you been up to, my friend?

KEYES: Well, one of the main things I've been doing — well, two things, really. I've been doing a lot of writing. I've actually finished the manuscript of a book called The Theology of Freedom, which is being looked at by a publisher. I'll see what happens to it.

I've also been doing a series on of articles on "The Crisis of the Republic: The Election of 2008," talking about the critical, critical juncture we've arrived at in the life of our republic, and what I believe are the deep issues of principle and survival that are involved in the election.

I've been spending a lot of time thinking these things through and writing about them. I've been working with Rick Scarborough, who has been putting together what he calls "70 Weeks to Restore America" — an effort to go about particularly taking the message to people of faith and mobilizing folks, so that they will realize it is part of their Christian vocation to bring the witness of faith and truth into the voting booth, into the consideration of issues, into the political arena. And so, we have been working on that together, he and I, through the course of many years, because I think that, really, it is the people of God who are called by His Name who are the key to whether or not America is going to survive in freedom.

We are a nation founded on the principle that our rights come from God. And therefore, without the people who bear witness to God and His authority, we cannot survive, we cannot make the judgments that are consistent with our principles. And that's what we've been working to help people to see and act on, because I think a lot of people feel in their hearts that a lot needs to be done. They can sense the great crisis we're in. And I think people of faith especially just need to stand up and, using the best judgment they have according to godly principles, they need to make choices as citizens that will bring that witness into our political life.

FOLGER: I am very excited about what you and Rick are doing because it's taking the message to the people. That's a lot of work. You guys are out there with for 70 weeks. This is not a small undertaking, and it's not a reactionary thing. It's proactive, we're taking the message to the people in the churches, and I — are you seeing any reaction? Are they deciding to do something about all the apathy that we see?

KEYES: Well, I think we have been encouraged. We've basically just started the effort, and we've gotten some good turnouts, and we've been building a list of participation by churches around the country. And sometimes groups of churches are coming together, in order to make a gathering happen. People who come out have received the message enthusiastically, and I think they will be going out to try to put it into practice.

And it's a message, by the way, that really isn't geared to this party or that party, this candidate or that candidate. It's just about the need to bring to bear a faith conscience, and a faith judgment, and faith discernment, in an active way in our role as citizens — both in terms of how we vote and how we are willing to lead in our communities — to stand up and offer Godly choices at election time.

So, I think that if Christian folks will see this as their vocation, and realize that that has been the key to the founding of the country, to its progress in liberty, I think they will realize that if we shoulder that responsibility again as people of faith in this generation, we'll turn things around, with God's help.

FOLGER: Well, it's very clear just how deeply-rooted your beliefs are, and no one can question just how articulate you are in communicating them, but where'd they start? Tell me your story. How is it that you first decided that, well, you know what, God is real, and His Word is true, and I'm going to obey him by implementing it in public policy? Give us a little bit of your background, will you?

KEYES: Well, I think I, from the time I was a child, of course, I was raised in a household where God was worshipped, where Christ was worshipped, and — like a lot of people — when I grew older, I started to wrestle with different issues, particularly in college, where you have those periods that are kind of crises of faith and discernment. And as I came through those, with the sense of God's help, with help from my mother and others, I started out in my public and political life, I was putting an emphasis at first, as you probably recall, on foreign policy, international affairs, the fight against Communism which I think I engaged in, like a lot of people, not only because — but I think strongly because — Communism represented a Godless approach to human affairs that then produced all kinds of bad consequences which we should know are going to come about when we turn our back on God's authority and start to see human will as the sole determinant of history.

And I then, I think, passed through a time when I was putting my confidence in others in terms of the pro-life issues and other moral issues, feeling that the Republican Party was taking the right stance, its leadership was committed. I saw some individuals who were speaking out.

But there came a time, really towards the end of the Reagan era, when people started to articulate the notion that the Republicans were gonna do better, if they would just put that abortion thing on the back burner, not make so much out of the moral issues, and so forth.

And I have felt, all my life, that that's just wrong. Our identity as a people depends on the basic principles this nation was founded on, and the first one is that we're all created equal and endowed by our Creator — by God Almighty, who made the universe — with our unalienable rights.

So, it hinges on the existence and authority of God. And I guess I grew to take that very seriously, because, you know, I'm a black American, and I grew up aware of, and then learning more and more about, the heritage of slavery and the terrible times that my ancestors had been through, the struggle that ultimately culminated in the Civil War — and later in the civil rights movement, against both slavery and other forms of racial injustice. And I was deeply, deeply struck in all of that by the simple fact that the people who were motivated to do something, and to work for justice, and to risk and give their lives in the effort and on the battlefield were godly people who understood that that basic principle of our life was justice, and that we could not forever live in contradiction with that principle.

And I think, sadly and tragically, that we made great progress, as you know, and have made progress in terms of racial justice and in terms of doing away with slavery and its legacy. Then, in the early '70s, what did we go and do? We start down a road, with abortion, that then — once again — rips that principle out of the heart and foundation of our life.

So, here we are in a situation where we're saying by human choice we can deny that child in the womb its right to life, even though our principle as a nation says that we are not equal by the choice of mother or any other human being, but by the will of God.

So, here again, we find ourselves in contradiction with that principle, and that's a fundamental principle of our life. Our whole claim to liberty, to unalienable rights, depends on that.

And so, I don't think that you can put it on the back burner, any more than you could put the issue of slavery on the back burner, because when you do, you're saying, "We don't need our principles anymore," or "We can remain a free people without any respect or regard for the fundamental truths that make us free." And as we have experienced, I think, over the last few decades that's not possible. That doesn't work. And it's not working for us.

In all kinds of ways that have to do with every issue we face — the family, economics, gay marriage, the terrorism issue, you name it — all of it's being affected by the demoralization that results from our abandonment of this fundamental principle. And I think that that's a great crisis of American life, right now, and it leads, as I say, to problems across the board. But there's a thread that runs through it, in terms of this abandonment of our principles, and it's only when we restore them that we're going to get things straightened out, and I think that we're gonna find the heart and conscience for that restoration if Christian people play their proper role.

FOLGER: Talking with Dr. Alan Keyes. Actually, doing a lot of listening, and happily so. You may want to talk with him yourself. Here's the number. 800-347-9829. Got a question? Got a comment? Give us a call. 800-347-9829, as we talk with Dr. Alan Keyes when we return.


FOLGER: Talking with Dr. Alan Keyes, three weeks before the Values Voter Presidential Debate. Hey, if you haven't started fasting, it isn't too late to do it. Fast from something. Some people have given up shopping, others have given up the Internet, some are giving up dessert, entertainment, television, comic books. We have little kids saying, "We're not gonna read comic books." This is what you do when you're serious about hearing from God. You turn everything off so you can hear His voice, and that's what I am just seeking, to hear what God would want for the future, what leader He would choose, and ask for Him to wake up the Christians who've been sitting in the pew, sitting on the sidelines while the Super Bowl is going on. And the primaries are gonna be, well, I believe where the next leader of the free world will be selected. So, please, please, please join me in prayer, and pray for this debate, as we move forward with all the details and all the finances. And I just have to keep giving the crushing weight of it back to God, so He can do the carrying. So just please keep Faith2Action and all the groups involved in prayer, because right now we've got more than twenty that have already confirmed, are gonna be a part of it. We've got seven candidates who say they're coming, and it's kind of exciting, wouldn't you agree, Dr. Keyes?

KEYES: I think it is. And I think it's important to see different groups and organizations working together to make sure that a platform is created that is actually going to address these fundamental issues of moral concern to the voters of faith and conscience.

I think it's absolutely critical, and I hope that people will respond — that they'll tune in, that they'll bring their prayerful discernment and judgment — because I think that it's important that folks be able to see and begin to form a right judgment about what's really going to address our crisis, and how we can best articulate that in the political context, to make sure our people are mobilized and understand what is at stake.

And so I think it's going to be critically important, and I just hope people will be interested, and will take the time to gather together and listen.

FOLGER: By the way, you'll be able to watch it on Sky Angel, and just pray for all these networks that we're lining up, that they'll be able to do it, that we'll get all the technical things worked out and Inspiration Network is gonna do it at least on delay, but they believe they're also going to be participating live. GOD TV will be doing it on delay, as will Daystar, and live, you want to watch it live, not only on Sky Angel, you can actually see it on the Internet. Yep, the website you know and love will have it,, and the site will also broadcast it and our thanks to the American Family Association for streaming it live, and picking up the bill.

By the way, speaking of Bill, thanks to [unintelligible] and the VCY network for picking up the bill to put it up on the satellite, so that we can have, not only on the web, the best, crispest audio we can get, but we're also gonna be able to hear it on the radio, not only on this network, AFA will also carry it, VCY, and I think a whole bunch more by the time this is said and done, so it's — there's a momentum building. There's an excitement. Monday's gonna be — that Monday, the 17th — is gonna be a debate party night! You can come, and you can pray for the candidates, keep score, register your friends to vote. And you know, and you know what I'm praying, Dr. Keyes, is that Monday night of the Values Voters Presidential Debate will be the beginning of Bible studies and prayer meetings that meet that Monday night — ironically, the day before the elections, are always on Monday, elections are Tuesday. I believe that if we continue to pray for our country as we are right now, we're going to see God's choice in the, not only the nomination in the primary process, but also in the general election.

And folks want to talk to Dr. Keyes, so I'm gonna quit talking and you can give us a call. 800-347-9829. Let's go first to Jonathan in McFarland, Wisconsin. Hey, Jonathan.

CALLER: Hello.

FOLGER: Welcome.

CALLER: Hi. I was just listening to Dr. Keyes talk, last time he was on, and he mentioned that, rather than trying to take the lesser of two evils or all evils, you know, the different candidates that we have, we should actually get behind someone who stands for the truth of Jesus Christ and the love of God, and who believes that those are part of what our land should be founded on, and support that person.

But it seems that there's been such a lack of that type of person who stands clearly for the truth of God — that's more they're, they say "values," but you don't know if it's Democratic values, family values, or hedonistic values, 'cause the word "values" can be interpreted different than ethics, you know what I mean?

But where is that man that, I mean, that we can stand behind? It seems like it's been hard to find someone.

KEYES: Well, I think I have heard a lot, as I go around the country, from people who are feeling a lack, and I think it's partly because even though, to be frank about it, we have people who are involved who I think are godly folks and who are, in fact, people who are in fact people of faith and who have put that into practice, in terms of pro-life stands and work, and so forth — what the country needs is to be clear and forthright in the presentation of the fundamental connection between the existence and authority of God, and our respect for Him, and the nature and survival of our liberty, of our rights, of our way of life. To say that forthrightly — without fear, without equivocation, without apology, to remind people where we come from, and that where we come from is a ground and foundation where God is indispensable and where we have appealed to Him for our rights and must therefore respect His authority in our use of those rights.

That kind of clear, simple message that is not only a statement of personal faith and belief, but really, a willingness to stand up and make clear the nation's grounding in this fundamental truth of our connection with God and His authority — I think people are waiting, and listening, and hoping that that will be articulated. But it hasn't been done in a forthright way — partly, at least, I think, because it's been forgotten.

People forget how to do that, in our politics. I'm often struck by the fact that, these days, people do very little reasoning from our basic principles, like the Declaration. And I think it's at least in part because they're so embarrassed by the fact that, right there at our foundations, God is mentioned — not only mentioned, but relied upon as the source of our rights, as the authority that allows us to claim that government by consent is the legitimate form of government that respects justice, to appeal to Him for His aid in maintaining our liberties, and therefore, of course, to respect His authority, not just as an afterthought or something we do to make ourselves comfortable, but as a discipline that we accept because it involves the boundaries without which we cannot do our duties, and therefore cannot maintain our liberties.

I think that understanding has not been forthrightly presented, and people are yearning for it.

FOLGER: What do you say to those people that are sick of hearing about the calls they have to make. They're sick of having to email and call, and fight all that's going on, and after all, Christians aren't called to politics, anyway. They're supposed to just be spreading the Gospel. What do you say to those folks?

KEYES: Well, let me deal with the latter first, because sometimes I think we are so used to hearing certain words of the Lord that we don't think about them anymore. And in His commission to us, what did Christ say? He said, "Go and teach all nations." Didn't He say that?

FOLGER: Um-hum.

KEYES: Now, it seems to me that the folks who believe that it's just about salvation to individuals aren't reading the words! Aren't realizing that Christ looks upon us and He says, "Don't forget, you are people who live in communities." That's what it means to be human. You are responsible for the relationship between your community and the truth, and you are to bear witness to that nation of the truth. That's what He says.

So, I don't see how we can pretend that it's not part of our vocation.

And then, you have the second step in America, we were founded on the respect for God's authority. His name invoked as the source of our rights. We don't have the excuse that there's this secular thing over here we don't get to talk about. Some people have tried to convince us of that, but it's a lie! And it's a palpable lie. You can see right there on the historical record, in the document which was the beginning of this nation's life, the reference to Almighty God as the very foundation of our claim to liberty and of the system and way of life that we live in liberty, our constitutional system based on the consent of the governed, resting on God's authority.

So, we have a special vocation, as Christians, that we can't escape, because the preaching of that gospel is what makes our liberty possible. You see what I'm saying?

FOLGER: Um-hmm.

KEYES: If we are not out there spreading that truth and standing for it and converting hearts, then respect for the existence and authority of God and His deep relevance to human choice and human affairs will be lost and forgotten, and this nation can't survive, once it is.

FOLGER: Amen. Folks standing in line, to talk to you. Let's see if we can get a few in. Alfredo is calling, in Milwaukee. Hey, there.

CALLER: Good afternoon, Janet. I called maybe two weeks ago, in regards to independent parties. I'm a member of the Constitution Party. We were formed in 1992. We opened a chapter here in Wisconsin in 1993.

In the 2000 election, we approached Dr. Keyes — would he join the Constitution [Party] and become Vice President of our party. I'm gonna say this: first of all, most importantly, we are Christian-based. We believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Almighty God. And we want to restore America under the Constitution. My question to Dr. Keyes is this: why did he not accept the nomination for Vice President to the Constitution Party, if, you know, we were inspired by God to all Christians vote Constitution Party, because the two-party vote is obsolete?

FOLGER: OK, we'll let Dr. Keyes answer that. Hold on, Alfredo. Let's give him a chance to respond. Go ahead.

KEYES: Well, I have to start by saying I have deep respect for the Constitution Party, for the people who have started it years ago, and for the stands that they take. In fact, I just recently addressed a national meeting of the Constitution Party and shared thoughts with them about the crisis the country's in right now, and I think I share almost total common ground with the Constitution Party.

But I'm a Republican, and have been all my adult life. I believe that we must fight for the Republican Party, because from its inception, it was a party that was committed to this nation's founding principles. That's what Abraham Lincoln represented.

And down through the years, they've had their ups and downs, they've had their straying, they've had their loss of principle, but we live in an era when — if you look at the Party platform — the Party platform of the Republican Party is deeply resonant with the principles this country was founded on. We just haven't had choices in leadership that correspond to that platform, necessarily, and that's been the key problem and the key challenge

But as I say, and I have said to people in my party over many years — I am not ready to give up on the solid, grassroots people of faith and conscience who have been putting their hope in the Republican Party, and who I think are now, more and more, among the disappointed, because they're seeing that what really corresponds to the truth of their heart and their faith, and its relevance to, and its foundational role in, American life and politics, is not really being respected.

And I would say that I see that right now, for instance. Just as an example, a lot of the people who are articulating about pro-life on the Republican side are now doing so in terms of sending it back to the states. When they say "overturn Roe," they mean, "send it back to the states."

Well, that's Stephen Douglas' position. "Popular sovereignty," he called it. Let the states decide. And Lincoln opposed that position.

So that means, we don't have a Lincoln — somebody who is schooled in the statesmanship of Lincoln — speaking for the Party of Lincoln!

FOLGER: Talking to Dr. Alan Keyes. We'll talk with you at 800-347-9829, when we return.


FOLGER: Turning people of faith into people — well — who can articulate that faith. Who better than Dr. Alan Keyes? Not sure how to put those views from the Bible into the culture? Well, listen in. He's gonna tell you how it's done, or he's gonna show you. 800-347-9829. Looks like we have — well, no open lines. Sorry about that. Let's go first, though, we've got Andrew calling from LaFayette, Indiana. Welcome, Andrew.

CALLER: Hi. My question is for Dr. Keyes.

KEYES: Uh-huh.

CALLER: My concern is that there is an existential threat, ideologically, from radicalist Islam, and — more to the point — there's a physical threat in the form of nuclear suicide bombing, and nuclear weapons in the hands of Islamists, as a terrorist weapon.

And, there's been some talk out there that this is the number one threat, militarily, that we really face. And yet, there doesn't seem to be any orientation, on the part of the federal government, to really confront that, militarily, as the number one threat facing us. And I wonder what you see there, and what you would suggest we do about it.

KEYES: I think that your assessment of the security situation is [gap in audio] — and has been, sadly, for some years, before it was really taken seriously in the wake of 9/11 — what was developing in the Middle East as the incubator of this kind of terrorism, that struck home against us in 2001, but has been built up over the course of several decades, and that the world in which we live can arm itself possibly with these terrible weapons of mass destruction.

Obviously, this was part of the debate over Iraq, still it must be part of our concern, and it's one of the reasons that I do not understand how we have gotten ourselves into a position where people fail to appreciate the absolute necessity to fight, efficaciously, the war on terror, and to deal with the fact that it comes, in its primary form, as this fundamental, fascist orientation coming out of the Middle East, and I think we have to make our first priority to disrupt and eliminate and destroy, before they can kill Americans.

That's without any doubt. And I don't see what the debate is on this point. These people in the Democrat side who say, "Bring our troops home," and so forth, I'd like to tell them, "OK, which would you rather have? Our armed forces fighting the armed forces of terror in Baghdad, or the armed forces of terror — possibly armed with biological mass destruction, or nuclear mass destruction — killing our civilians, here in Chicago, and New York, and so forth?"

That's question number one. We have to continue to take the war to the enemy, to disrupt this phenomenon where it comes from, and to have a base of operations from which we can do so.

And second, we need to be absolutely clear and forthright on our willingness to make sure they understand that any implementation of nuclear terror against the United States will put the governments that facilitate the existence of terror in mortal danger.

I think if we equivocate about this, and give these people a free ride — that they can help this phenomenon destroy us, and then sit on the sidelines and not take the consequences — then we're in serious danger of that destruction.

The third point I'd make, though, is that part of the problem we face right now is a morale problem. Right? It's the fact that the American people are listening to voices that try to pretend that war is optional, that defending ourselves is optional, that we can bring the troops home and it will all be peaceful — are they forgetting that we didn't attack these people, that they attacked us? Are they forgetting the deep animus that drives them against us, which comes from a worldview which practically sees us as identified with the satanic forces of destruction, and that's what they'll preach amongst their people, and that's what they foment and promote against us?

In response to that, we need a clear sense of who we are, and what we stand for, in a positive way, and that the phenomenon that we fight against is not just a matter of the terrible destructiveness and so forth, but that that willingness to murder innocent life, fomented in a religious context or any context, overthrows the fundamental principles of right and justice that are our identity as a people.

That's what we're fighting for. That's what we're sending our young men and women to die for. And that, of course, finally means that we've got to be clear about the moral basis of this struggle, here at home as well as abroad, so that with good heart, and clear conscience, and firm will, we will do what is necessary to defend our way of life.

I think all of these things have to be implemented, in order for us to deal effectively with this threat. And right now, we've got people — some of them, on the Republican side — who don't understand any of it, apparently.

Final point. We deal with issues like they're in separate boxes, like the issue of immigration, they call it, and so forth. And I'm sitting here thinking, "How can we be serious about dealing with the threat these people pose to us here at home, and leave our southern border basically defenseless, where we're not in control of it — pretending that it's an issue all about economic opportunity and people coming looking for jobs, when the very same porous border is a border across which other people can come and look to take our lives?"

We've got to get serious about the fact that our security must be seamless, that we can't leave the back door open on the southern border, for two thousand miles, and expect that we're safe.

So, these are not separate issues. They are issues that have to be considered coherently, so that we will have consistent policies that are able to fashion a web of proper security, based on the right moral foundations, so that we sustain our will.

FOLGER: Folks waiting to talk to you. Let's see if we can get to a few more. Josh, calling from St. Petersburg, Florida. Welcome, Josh.

CALLER: Hello, and thanks for taking my call. I just wanted to say that I agree with you that this country was founded on Christianity, and I also wanted to say that, if they pass these laws taking away our Christian rights, it's just because the majority — the Christian people — did absolutely nothing to fight it.

KEYES: I agree. I think a lot of people have become complacent because, in so many ways, this country was friendly, and still — in an outward sort of way — is friendly. People can go to church, and pray. But now it's become increasingly unfriendly to the implementation of Christian ethics, and of morality, especially in the context of human sexuality and the family. And as we all know, they want to criminalize the Christian moral understanding of the natural family, ordained by God, where man and woman in covenant accept their responsibility before God, for the well-being of their children, which is the preservation of our species, and therefore the obligation we owe as a species to God Almighty who created us.

They want to change all that. And I keep trying to tell people, we want to see these issues in little boxes, but if we claim our rights from God's authority, and then destroy our allegiance to that understanding of the family which we derive from respect from God's authority, we're destroying the practical basis for the survival of our liberty, because the key unit of economic life, and education, and social character and formation is the family.

Deform that family — put it in a position where it's no longer a question of our obligation to each other and our children based on our obligation to God, but that it's simply a matter of arbitrary choice, and preference, and whim — and we have cut the ground out from under the disciplined understanding of freedom that makes it possible for liberty to survive.

FOLGER: Talking with Dr. Alan Keyes. Doing a lot of listening, because he's got a lot to say. You got a question? Well, our lines are jammed, but we're gonna get through as many as we can. We've got Jonathan on the line, in McFarland, Wisconsin. Welcome, Jonathan.

CALLER: Hey. I just had one thing to add, to something I mentioned earlier. You know how it says, "My people perish for lack of knowledge," and I was wondering, as I pray for God to raise up a righteous ruler for 2008, how do we — besides just praying — what practical things would you suggest, as far as praying for the shepherds to teach the truth, like you said, that we do have a civic duty, because it's, like you said, the apathy that has set in, I think is partly because the shepherds have not been teaching the flock that this is our responsibility, and that God is interested in our day-to-day activities in our nation.

KEYES: I think that you've hit the nail on the head, because Rick Scarborough, with great truth, has always said that the pastors are the key, and that as the pulpit goes, so goes the nation. And I think this reflects the truth that those pastors are either going to be encouraging the discernment and wisdom of their people, in their Christian concern for their community, or they are not going to be doing it, and it's not going to happen.

And I'm fearful, as we also have, by the way, a system of — income tax system, other things that have been used, now overt laws that they want to put on the books, to intimidate the pulpits, to keep people from preaching the Gospel, to keep pastors from understanding that there isn't this phony separation of God from America, and separation of church and state, implying that we can't bring to bear our faith and consciences on the issues of the day. That's all a lie.

But they have used that lie to enervate the pulpit, to weaken it, to discourage people from taking on their responsibility to help Christian people think through and apply the precepts of our Christian faith to our duty as citizens.

So, I think that you hit the nail on the head, and in our prayers, we need to pray that people will have that wisdom, beginning with seeing the importance of it. That's why I spend so much time trying to remind people that this isn't something hard to understand. The very clear premises of our liberty require respect for the existence and authority of God. Period. End of sentence.

That being the case, it's not hard to see how and why people of faith have a special vocation to defend that basic premise of liberty. It's not something we are just doing for our own rights. It's something we do to preserve the very possibility of respect for rights and self-government in this country.

It is something that has a result for the liberty of all, not just for the right of Christian people to profess their faith, and live according to it.

So, that's a responsibility that then goes beyond selfish interest, that goes beyond the question of how we're being treated or not treated, and really goes to our vocation and responsibility and love for our country, as a whole, and for our fellow citizens.

FOLGER: 1-800-347-9829. Let's go all the way up to Ohio. We've got Beth, in Broadview Heights. I think I know who this is. Hey, Beth.

CALLER: Hello. I just called to say how much I appreciate Dr. Alan Keyes. I was at Mount Rushmore when he spoke for the right for the unborn, which was on the ballot at the time in South Dakota, and I really appreciate the way that he has the ability to articulate what we want said.

And afterwards, I went up and hugged him — I didn't know if he would remember this — and said that God wasn't finished, and that God wants to use you in a very big way in the future. And I could just feel the anointing of God on that. And I just wanted to remind him and say that we appreciate him and his stand for God, and God's principles, and what he's doing in our country.

KEYES: Yes, I do remember that, and I remember it because I know that people must realize that people who are involved in all of this — Janet, you know this — I'm sure that, in your own walk, you go through your ups and downs. You go through your days. And we were fighting that battle so hard, and not knowing what the outcome would be, and that word that you spoke was like a confirmation to me. It brought tears to my eyes. And I still remember it as something that helped me to realize that I had to focus on the positive work that God was doing in what we were achieving, regardless of what the outcome would be. I want to thank you for that.

FOLGER: Thank you, Dr. Keyes. We'll be right back.


FOLGER: Turning people of faith into people, well, that are articulating that faith. There's nobody that does it better than Dr. Alan Keyes. He's our guest, and lines are jammed. We're going to see if we can take as many calls as we can in this, the final segment. Boy, time goes fast when we've got you on the line. Let's to, though, to Michigan. We've got Kerry on the line. Welcome, Kerry.

CALLER: Hey. I've got a question for Dr. Keyes.

KEYES: Uh-huh.

CALLER: I want to hear your testimony of salvation, when and where you were saved.

KEYES: Well, I think, like a lot of people, I'm a Roman Catholic. I was raised in the Catholic faith, a cradle Catholic, and sometimes people think that you say that and that answers the question, and it doesn't, because the truth of the matter is that faith, I think, is a matter of when your heart is really anointed in its own right with your relationship with Jesus Christ, and that happened for me in the course of the struggle I went through when I was in graduate school in particular — and I know, for folks who study and are of faith, I think a lot of people have been through this, because in our academic environment, a lot of pressure is put on your faith. There are a lot of ways in which the whole system tries to undermine the credibility of your faith, and make you feel ashamed of it, and so forth and so on. And you go through battles.

And I was in the midst of working on my dissertation, and I'd really reached a point where it was kind of rock bottom — I thought I was gonna give it up, couldn't get through it — and, finally, was at that point of, kind of, darkness, and feeling, as if, well, I'm just a failure, and I can't get through this.

And I called my Mom, and she talked to me for a long time. And in the course of that conversation, she reminded me of the faith in the Lord, and the fact that you can't get through anything without God. You've got to commit yourself to Him, and to Him alone, and He'll get you through this, because you have been able to do it by your faith in Him, and He'll help you again.

And it was at that point — really, I'll remember it as long as I live — that something in me gave way, and I realized it's not me, but God at work, and I've just got to rely on that, for everything.

And so, in that way, I often tell people, I was there working on this doctorate, and so forth, and my mother had only finished high school, she never went to college, but in her faith, she was the one who knew how to get a Ph.D. I didn't.

And it was really through that understanding, and it's not all this other stuff. It's just God alone. And once you understand that, and put your hand in His hand, and let Him take over, then you're going to be able to achieve what He wants you to achieve.

And I think that that has stuck with me for all my life, because it was a juncture of my life when I think I could have turned this way or that, and without her help in giving myself to Christ, I wouldn't have made it.

FOLGER: You know, I can relate to that. Beth from Broadview Heights, that was my mom. I think you know that. And to have a godly mother, there's just no greater gift. Let's go next, though, to Iowa. We've got Phil on the line. Welcome, Phil.

CALLER: Hi, Dr. Keyes. Janet, thanks for taking my call.


CALLER: Dr. Keyes, I had a question regarding the current SPP initiatives, and things like elitist attempts to manage or control efforts within our government. Who's fighting these battles? Because it seems like a lot of these folks are on a revolving door type practice between government, private industry, and consultancy groups, etc. What are your thoughts on this, please? And I'll take your answers off the air.

KEYES: Thank you. I would like, once again, to direct people to, because I'm doing a series of articles, and it just happens that the issue that was just raised is going to be dealt with in the next article. I still have it here in my computer, but I'm going to send it in shortly. Because, I think that the answer to his question has to do with — let me put it this way: We are in a situation now — let me put it this way — where a lot of people are realizing we are being betrayed. Right?

As a people, our sovereignty is being betrayed. Our borders are not being defended. Immigration policies are being proposed and, willy-nilly, being implemented. Policies toward this North American Union are being done in such a way as to undermine our sovereignty as a people. Destroy our borders. Utterly subvert the demographics that sustain the identity of our people.

And it's being done by folks who are elected by us, and who profess to be of us, and yet, who seem to be serving something else. You understand what I'm saying? Not the American people. And I think that sense that we have an elite that has abandoned its allegiance to the Constitution, to government of, by, and for the people, and to the best interest of the liberty of this people, that's pervasive now. A lot of people are waking up to it.

And some of them, sometimes, they try to intimidate you, and say, "Oh, it's a conspiracy theory," or something. And I'm saying to them, "Go back and read the founders." Hamilton and others were absolutely clear on this fact — that throughout human history there has been a struggle between the principles of justice that respect the equity and justice for the whole of the people, and the ambition of those who believe that they're superior, that they should make the decisions, that they should get the benefits, and that everybody else should be cut out. That's an old story, and it's still with us.

FOLGER: By the way, they're denying. Now that President Bush won't directly answer about this North American Union, that he's meeting in Canada with the Prime Minister there, who said, "Hey, there's no NAFTA Superhighway connecting the three nations, and there isn't going to be an interplanetary one, either!" I mean, there's ridicule, and yet all these plans appear to be going forward. What do you say?

KEYES: It reminds me of that old saying: the smartest thing the devil ever did was to convince people he didn't exist. Right? And these people think that they're gonna convince us that nothing's going on, so that we'll ignore the evidence of our own eyes.

But it's not happening, thank God. Americans are waking up. But I think we need to realize that this isn't just about our borders. It's not just about the superhighway. It's not just about this action or that. We are in a situation where the sovereignty of the American people — a phrase you don't hear them say very much anymore — is being utterly subverted, and we must act across the board to assert and restore our sovereignty, in both a constitutional, and a physical and geographic sense.

FOLGER: Dr. Alan Keyes, thank you for all you're doing. Thank you for being our guest. And, of course, we can get to your RenewAmerica site, through the website we know and love, Take the weekend and pray, as we move forward with the details of the Values Voter Presidential Debate. Thanks so much, sir.

KEYES: Thank you.

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