Radio interview
Alan Keyes on the Jack Stockwell Show (KTKK)
June 20, 2006Salt Lake City, UT
STOCKWELL: All right. We have a guest. Alan Keyes. Are you there, Alan?
KEYES: Yes, I am. Hi.
STOCKWELL: Hey, good. You haven't been on my show since you were running for president.
KEYES: It's been a while, I guess.
STOCKWELL: It has been a while. Are you in Provo yet?
KEYES: No, I think I will be traveling tomorrow.
STOCKWELL: Okay. You're going to be at the Provo Library Ballroom tomorrow night, according to this press release I have.
KEYES: Um huh
STOCKWELL: You'll be speaking on solutions to America's border crisis.
KEYES: Um huh
STOCKWELL: Carmen Mercer, who is also spokeswoman for the National Minutemen Political Action Committee, will be there, and the speeches will be preceded by a, it says here, a free screening of prize-winning documentary of "Cochise County: Cries from the Border," and then a Q&A session.
And, of course, this has been a subject on my show, endlessly. It's been a subject of other talk show hosts here at K-TALK radio. So, I've always liked the way you think and the way you talk, and I consider it a privilege, sir, for you to be here on my show today.
KEYES: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it very much.
STOCKWELL: Yes, sir. So . . . it says here that you are a . . . it says, "Alan Keyes (I don't know whose web release this is, er news release this is), but it says National Minuteman leader. Are you a Minuteman leader?
KEYES: Well . . . I have been strongly supportive of their efforts, and our organizational infrastructure through the Declaration Alliance has helped them to get their word out to people around the country. And to develop sometimes, organizationally, it can require a little time before you can get 501c-4 status, or c-3 status, and all these other things that the law requires, so that people can do national fund raising and get their word out. And we essentially have simply lent our infrastructure to them, so that they could then jump start the effort- -which I think is critical, because they have been, for the longest time, long before it was popular and while they were still being stigmatized as some try to do even now, as vigilantes and all of this- -they were pointing to the realities that we can't have any kind of sensible discussion about immigration policy, so called, if we're not in control, physically, of our borders. And that, I think, is pure common sense which is being totally disregarded by our national elites in both parties and from the White House, and it doesn't make any sense.
So, yes, I have been working with them, because I think they represent the common sense viewpoint of the American people and that that viewpoint needs to be implemented, because if we don't get control of the southern border it has national securities implications as well as leaving us in a position where we have what amounts to unrestricted illegal immigration coming into the country causing all kinds of problems.
STOCKWELL: Well, the President and the Secretary of State both refer to the Minutemen as vigilantes.
KEYES: Yes, and I find it sad that we have reached a point in this country that when people in America take an initiative, peacefully, sensibly, in an orderly way take an initiative to highlight a problem and to try to take an initiative to make sure it's dealt with, that's the spirit of self-government. That's how this country was founded in the first place. That's how it was opened up in the frontier. That's how things were built in economic terms- -that spirit of initative and enterprise and a willingness to bear individual responsibility. Instead of stigmatizing it, in point of fact, I think folks ought to be reaching out a hand and saying, "Gosh, look at all this energy that could be organized in a rational way to help deal with the challenge we face on the borders."
Same way as in World War II- -you had fathers on coast of Great Britain looking for potential problems that who would then report to the forces that needed that kind of alert. We have abled-bodied people who are ex-police officers and others who have professional training as well as just ordinary citizens willing to sit there and provide the kind manpower that would help to support effective securing of our borders, and instead of embracing this as an example of the ways that Americans can participate effectively to help enhance the security of this country, they're stigmatized. I think it makes no sense and it shows how out of touch our leaders are, not just with people these days, but with the tradition of true American self-government.
STOCKWELL: Well, when you don't seem to have the support of the leading power of this nation, and he seems to, you know, one minute he's making all these business deals with Fox and then the next minute he says we're going to build a tower. And then Fox says, "What are you doing?" "Ah, well, . . . we're not . . . ." I mean doesn't it seem almost like an insurmountable task that you're taking upon yourselves to try protect and strengthen and secure this incredibly long border, when it doesn't seem like the government's behind it?
KEYES: Step number one, I think that the most important thing for our people to do is to stay true themselves in a common sense way what they believe is necessary and right for this country. That's a responsibility we have as citizens. We're supposed to have a system that then allows people to implement that sense of responsibility through their representatives and to get the kind of policy that will then reflect the common sense of the American people.
Sometimes that requires overcoming the resistance of leaders who are committed to serving special interests. Who are committed in this case to serving a vision of the future that actually involves, I think, the destruction of the American nation [...] in the name of some kind economic globalism. Some people are committed to that, but I think the overwhelming majority of the American people are not committed to that. And at the end of the day, the power in this country still belongs to the people who set up the Constitution in the first place. It doesn't say, "We, the government establish a constitution." No, the government is the result of a constitution ordained and established by the people of this country, who remain the ultimate authority, the sovereign authority for both constitution and law.
So, I think that it's not only perfectly appropriate. It is necessary for the health and success of our system as people bear their responsibility, take the initiative. And they're already, the Minutemen already have had an effect. I mean, there was a time when idea of having a border fence was just laughed out of court. Now, it's included every piece of legislation. At least, they're paying lip service.
STOCKWELL: Hold on. Hold on. Will you take calls?
KEYES: Sure.
STOCKWELL: All right. Hold on. 254-5855
[break]
STOCKWELL: My guest is Alan Keyes, former candidate for the President of the United States, here an election or so ago. He will be speaking tomorrow night at Provo City Library Ballroom on the topic of solutions to America's border crisis. It begins at 6:30 p.m. It's free and open to the public.
Alan, I already have one criticism. It says you're being too nice. You're beating around the bush. They want you to come back out and lead the party to the greatness it once had.
KEYES: I'm being too nice? I think that my consideration, especially on an issue like this, is just to try to get people to do what's right, where as the physical security and survival [..] to lead this country. And I think a lot of leaders have abandoned that. I have basically said, and I believe that it's true, that the last 25 years of policy on this issue have been a betrayal by our political elites of the basic interest of the sovereign American people, and they are going to destroy us utterly if we don't take a handle on this and stand up and insist that a proper and rationale respect for our borders, beginning first and foremost with physical security, recognizing for instance what G.W. Bush doesn't want to see. He said in his speech that he doesn't want to militarize the borders. Well, the border's being militarized by terrorists, by drug dealers and others who are bringing automatic weapons and other elements of armed force to the business of violating our borders. The military exists to defend us against such threats and pretending that they don't exist isn't going to make them go away. We need to deal with them effectively. And the best estimate that I've seen suggests that we need a force properly trained of about 36,000 people. And we don't have anything like that. The days when we could have this kind of casual border police mentality are gone, and our leaders need to wake up to it.
STOCKWELL: Alan, we have three representatives from the state of Utah, and one of them in particular seems to have a different viewpoint than you do of where to stand on this issue.
KEYES: Well, that's true. I think we've been watching, I think, a kind of drama in the Congress of the United States. The Senate has gone off the deep end and has proposed a bill that includes provisions for guest workers that essentially opens the flood gates of uncontrolled immigration. At the same time, they make token gestures in the direction of what they call border security that will amount to nothing. And the combination of the two is a policy that is being criticized all over the place, as one of the worst pieces of legislation.
I heart Robert Rector yesterday say that it's the worst piece of legislation he'd ever seen, and this is the expert from the Heritage Foundation on these issues, who has done a lot of excellent work.
The House on the other hand has gotten the priorities straight and has a piece of legislation that focuses on physical border security, on proper enforcement of our immigration laws. If you don't have the capacity to control the borders, it doesn't matter what policy you write into law, because it's not going to make any difference. The situation is out of your control. That's the common sense of it. And I think that people with that common sense at the grassroots have to insist that our representatives respect it, and especially in the House of Representative that they not cave to the Senate's version that is a sell-out of American sovereignty and America's borders. It actually includes a provision that would require that we consult with the government of Mexico before we place a fence along the border. So, we now have to ask permission to defend the borders of the United States.
STOCKWELL: Ah, have you had any discussions with Congressman Cannon on this?
KEYES: I haven't had direct discussion. I know that he has been in the forefront of folks who are arguing for what they call the comprehensive approach, which is actually an approach that puts the cart way before the horse, in terms of pretending that we can have some kind of amnesty and guest worker program before we are actually in control of the situation of the borders and of law enforcement. That's a fiction. It's a delusion. And it's the kind of delusion that has governed our policy for the last 30 odd years, and it needs to end.
STOCKWELL: All right. Can you take some calls?
KEYES: Sure.
STOCKWELL: 254-5855, locally. 470-5855, in Provo. 670-5855, up to the north.
Jeff you're on with Alan Keyes.
JEFF HAYES: Good morning, Mr. Keyes. I'm Jeff Hayes with Executive Excellence Publications. We are a unique publishing clearinghouse of knowledge dealing with the movers and shakers of personal organizational leadership. Now we have contributors such as Steven Covey, Warren Dennis, Peter Drucker, etc. They contribute articles for our monthly publication. So, Mr. Keyes I'd like you to consider contributing an article on the principles you stand for, as it concerns leadership excellence, in an era almost totally in moral bankruptcy. Would you like to consider that? [...] you off the air.
KEYES: Sure. I'd be glad to do it.
HAYES: Great. I hope to be seeing you tomorrow evening then in Provo.
KEYES: I look forward to it. And I hope a lot of folks will be joining us there. Because this is one of those times, we've already seen it, as people at the grassroots are mobilizing, the politicians are finally being struck with the truth- -and many, even those who have had the opposite position are changing their tune out of respect for the common sense of their people, and we can hope that this will happen in Utah.
STOCKWELL: All right, Jeff why don't you approach Alan about that tomorrow night and you can link up with him and do what you want to do.
HAYES: Thank you very much, Jack.
STOCKWELL: Yeah, you bet. That sounds good.
All right. So . . . hey, you know . . . now, let's get back to this immigration thing here, because you've got an awful lot more people in the House, and the House has the tendency to turn over a little more so than the Senate in the various elections, although the House still maintains a rather strong incumbency rate.
But from my understanding, the House's concept and the Senate's concept are so divergent I don't see some kind of joint resolution working this thing out.
KEYES: I hope there isn't one, because we're at a stage now where, rather than embrace any form of this amnesty that's being proposed in various ways, it would be better to have no bill at all, because a bad situation that will only make the whole situation of immigration worse isn't going to help us. And that's what the Senate bill is. You're talking essentially about provisions that will be lead to unrestricted flow of immigrants into this country, whatever they pretend.
And even the bill that's being proposed, I think, by Congressman Mike Pence, and he claims that some kind of compromise is actually just amnesty by another name and includes a guest worker provision that some have argued, including folks from Heritage, would be simply unrestricted ability of people around the world to come to America in unlimited numbers and would allow the profits to continue of having these special economic interests attempt essentially to undercut both the price of labor and the quality of life, economically, in this country.
I think Americans need to wake up, because we have situation where our government on this issue is being hijacked by a set of very narrow special interests that are working across purposes with the whole quality of life of the American people.
STOCKWELL: Okay, now, this cross purposes, this effort, this political or at least this immigration junta that they're trying to pull off here, from my point of view, from my perspective is to lead to an ever increasing globalist community and a diminution of American sovereignty to the point where there will essentially be no border between the U.S. and Mexico and the U.S. and Canada.
KEYES: Well, that's exactly right, and I think we see people acting on this concept, of the borderless concept, which is actually a concept that destroys the idea that we are a distinct nation. Look around the world. The kind of self-government that the American people enjoy is still not common throughout the globe. We need to defend the principle, and even though we represent a very diverse people- -we have folks here from all over the world- -on behalf of that humanity we need to make sure that this experiment works and is not destroyed by people who over the sake of narrow economic interests are willing to set up a situation in which the sovereignty of the American people is destroyed, and in which the authority of our Constitution is undermined, because if you don't know where your borders are, then you don't know how far your authority extends, and you have influences as they are right now that come in contradicting, interfering with the sovereign people of this country. And already in some of the mechanisms set up by NAFTA and other things you have seen that- -the substitution of vague kind of international tribunals where the elected legislators and representatives of our people- -that destroys the sovereignty of the American people, and I think this whole thing is part, as you said, of that larger picture.
STOCKWELL: Okay, let me get Joel on here with you. Joel from Utah Valley, you're on with Alan Keyes.
JOEL: Hi. First of all, I'd like to thank you very much, Alan, for your clarification on the order of things that need to happen. The border control first is something that I think is an important issue, but I have a question that I've never seen anyone really directly answer, and that is, you've got a large party for amnesty, and you've got a large party with an unrealistic expectations that we can just round up everyone up and ship them back across the border. Where do we find the middle ground? And, if we implement procedures to enforce employers to have only legal immigrants and / or properly visa-ed immigrants, if we enforce that, then I can see it- -a potential issue with a large unemployed group of people out there who may very well turn to crime to support themselves.
KEYES: You see, before we get into that, though. I really have to keep reminding people that, unless you're suggesting that we have no borders anymore and people can just do whatever they please, including terrorists and everybody else, all discussion of law and policy and provision for dealing with this and that is a fiction, if we are not in control of the border. Do you agree with that?
JOEL: I agree.
KEYES: I don't understand how these people are saying that we'll put this provision in the law that you'll have to get this kind of visa if you want to come here and be a temporary guest worker, and so forth. None of that means anything if people can just walk across the border at will. Why should they care what you put in your laws if you can't enforce it?
Ah, and the President looked us in the eye and said that we don't have control of our borders. And I'm saying to myself, "Well, if we don't have control of your borders, you don't have the lawmaking ability. So, why are we discussing all of these provisions?" Let's get first things first. Because nothing we discuss, nothing we agree on, nothing we think is sensible in terms of dealing with this problem means anything if we're not in control of that border. That's step number one, and before anything else is done it must be taken care of. And that's where I think right now the discussion ought to end. People are looking and saying, "What about a constructive solution?" You've got no constructive solution, if you don't have the instruments that are necessary to implement it. With those instruments in your hand, you can then speak with confidence of what may need to be done, but we can't do that now.
STOCKWELL: Thanks for your call, Joel.
JOEL: Thank you.
STOCKWELL: We appreciate your input.
Now, in relation to that question that you're just asked now- -March of last year, the premier of Canada, the president of Mexico, the President of the United States all met down there in Crawford, Texas to have a little meeting. Soon as Martin goes home, there's certain things that take place in Ottawa regarding lessening of restrictions at the border. Same thing that continues to happen, less and less border checks of even where they are controlled borders with Mexico- -less and less checks of incoming materials and produce and whatever. And then President Fox comes to Utah!
KEYES: Um huh
STOCKWELL: Now, of all the places he could come, he comes to Utah! Your take on that.
KEYES: Well, I think, that we've had a situation where a foreign president is obviously trying to mount a kind of political campaign in this country in support of a policy that, however it may favor the Mexican elites and other economic special interests, it's totally contrary to the interests of our people and actually insults the integrity of our sovereignty and our right to govern ourselves under our constitution.
So, I think we need to be very wary of what is going on here. People are moving forward in such a way, as to essentially reduce our constitution to a scrap of meaningless paper, while they put in place mechanisms that will subvert and supersede the legislative mechanisms and constitutional mechanisms that embody our sovereignty and our ability to control matters within our own house that's subject to republican and representative self-government. That's what's going on here.
People make all kinds of economic arguments and so forth. But the key question is: are we willing, for the sake of some narrow economic special interest, to sacrifice the integrity of self-government in this country, which is the basis on which our people have been able to make sure that they can defend their rights, to have a quality of life that exceeds that of most other people anywhere in the world? I think that our ability to defend ourselves to a political system that is controlled by our people is the essential prerequisite of maintaining the economic quality of our lives. If we give it up, then I think we are going to move ourselves into the position that sadly a lot of these folks are fleeing, who are coming here from Mexico. One of the most class ridden, elite oppressed societies in the history of the world is right across our southern border. And I think there are some people who would like to import that kind of system into America. And we've got to say, "No."
STOCKWELL: And then you have a Senate sponsoring legislation who wants to get Mexico's permission before we do any border changes. What do you do with a senate like that?
KEYES: Well, I think you tell them where they can take that, and you need do that at the polling places. I'm joining with a group of folks and there are many who are now looking at this and saying, "Now, this isn't a matter of Democrat or Republican." We have got to insist that every politician in this country abide by their oaths, which is not to have allegiance to some globalism, not to have allegiance to some president of Mexico, not to have allegiance to some free trade arrangement and other things to serve the people who are lining their political coffers. They swear an oath to uphold, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution established by the people of the United States. And if they're not willing to do that, then we ought to kick them out.
And that means that in primary situations, if you've got somebody who insists on sacrificing the integrity of our borders and the sovereignty of our people, it's time to turn out against those people and say, "No," whatever party it is.
STOCKWELL: All right. We'll be right back with Alan Keyes. Darrell, you'll be next. Line available 254-5855.
[break]
We're back.
We've got about 20 minutes before the top of the hour. Alan Keyes will be speaking tomorrow night, June 21st at the Provo Library Ballroom on "Solutions to America's Border Crisis." It is free- -open to the public. They will also be showing the prize winning documentary "Cochise County: Cries from the Border," followed by a question and answer session. Along with him will be Carmen Mercer, who is the spokeswoman for the National Minuteman Political Action Committee.
Several people lining up here. I ask you to be very brief. Darrell.
DARRELL: Hi Jack and Alan. Good article in today's Trib [Salt Lake Tribune] on page A8, concerning what we're talking about. It says "One social security number- -at least 81 people using it." [laughter]
KEYES: God knows what's going to happen to all those millions that have been stolen.
DARRELL: Well, this lady in California says that her social security number really gets around. It's been used by at least 81 people in 17 states, and, of course, illegals.
STOCKWELL: She's going to have a real tax problem next year then. Isn't she?
DARRELL: These are people that Utah welcomes with open arms, of course, even though what they do is illegal. Even the IRS says now that she owes $15,000 in back taxes, even though she hasn't worked in years. And more surprisingly the taxes are due from jobs in Texas, and she lives in California. The IRS knows, as it said in the paper, that numerous people are using her Social Security Number. Of course, they can't collect from them, I guess, so they're trying to collect the $15,000 from her.
KEYES: You know, one of the things that is hardest to stomach is that there is this big hemming and hawing about whether or not the Social Security Administration can share numbers that they know to be fraudulent with the enforcement element of the government when it comes to things like immigration. It's mind boggling. They have the information, and yet they are making an argument that they can't use this information which would help to deal with the problem.
HAYES: She has a problem, too, she says. She can no longer prove who I am.
STOCKWELL: Yeah. All right, Darrell. That's good enough. Thanks for your call, Darrell. I've got to move on here. Deanna, you have a comment for Alan?
DEANNA: Yes [unintelligible]
STOCKWELL: Deanna, you're going to need to speak up.
DEANNA: Okay. I just wanted to say that yesterday President Bush and Laura Bush publicly endorsed Chris Cannon, and urged all of us in Utah to vote for him. You know. To me, that is a clear sign of who Cannon is. He is one of those that they have over there in the House of Representatives to help pass along these bills for illegal immigration.
So, I urge everybody to go to the polls and kick him out of office and put someone that will be willing to listen to us, you know, the public. And I think that, you know, if we give the chance to Jacob, you know, he might to something or another candidate. You know, let's don't just buy what they say, because he's playing very, you know, oh, I am pro-legal immigration, and I want to solve this problem and all that. He's one of the ones who passed many bills to help them to get tuition and all this stuff. And so, I think, that we shouldn't fall for what President Bush and Laura Bush said yesterday about Chris Cannon. I think we should vote him out of office and that's the reason why they did this, because he's nervous. He knows that we are waking up. We should do that on June 27.
STOCKWELL: All right. Thank you.
KEYES: I think that, sadly, this is one of those policies areas where the President has simply turned away from the common sense of our people, and what I think has really been his sworn constitutional duty.
I thought it was breath taking in the speech that he gave on the subject, and that he would look us in the eye- -now, this isn't a president that wasn't elected yesterday, right? This is his second term. We're well into his second year of his second term, so almost six years. And he looks the American people in the eye and says, what? "We don't have control of our borders." And I'm saying to myself, "Excuse me, you're the head of the federal government, that is a prime federal responsibility, and you're telling us after all of these years that he's been in charge and you're telling us after all these years that you've been in charge that you haven't been doing your job?
And then he wants to come forward and say that in order to clean up the mess created by the incompetence and willful neglect of our interests by him and this political elite, we must then tolerate policies that will utterly subvert the identity of the American people, the integrity of our institutions and the sovereignty of our constitutional system. So, to remedy a problem that they caused because of their political ambitions, America must sacrifice itself. I think it's a travesty, and I think folks need to wake up and consider what's going on and vote accordingly.
STOCKWELL: All right. I'll offer a question. Since you were involved with the Reagan administration and the Reagan administration was granting amnesties, how do you feel about that now?
KEYES: I think it was a mistake. It was a mistake at the time. And I think many folks who have looked at that situation acknowledge it. But why was it a mistake? You know. It was a mistake because people said we're going to have self-enforcement and then completely turned their back on it. And that's what's been going on for the last twenty years.
STOCKWELL: Well, it sets the stage for . . .
KEYES: It's one of the reasons right now why I tell people, "Don't take a 'trust me' bill." Now, that's the same thing we got in '86. "Do this, and then trust us. We're going to have self-enforcement." They lied then, and I believe that unless we get the results in our hands first, we're to suffer the same fate now.
STOCKWELL: Yeah. Precisely. Precisely. You also support the efforts of the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps, and their attempts to actually build a fence. Do you think that's going to happen?
KEYES: Well, I think it is happening. I think that it is an initiative that's being taken in cooperation with some of the folks along the borders on their private land in the interest of trying to do what's necessary to safeguard their land, their homes, their families in what has become a very untenable situation, where folks are faced with the fact that folks coming across their land, using their resources, sometimes damaging and destroying their property, and they have no defense against it. So, they're taking the initiative that says, "Look. We're Americans and we're going to have to take a stand to defend ourselves." Doing it in a way that is lawful and that is peaceful, and yet that tries to take account of their interest.
My hope is, however, that that kind of initiative on the part of our people will shame this government into doing its job, because in point of fact the prime responsibility for the security of our borders falls in the hands of the federal government and that we need to insist that this job be done first and foremost.
We have a government meddling in all sorts of things that aren't their business at the national level, and yet they're neglecting one of the prime responsibilities of a national government, which is the defense of our borders. This is a disgrace.
STOCKWELL: We've only got a couple of minutes here or so left in this program. What do you want people to come away from the meeting tomorrow night feeling and thinking?
KEYES: Two things. I want them to come away with a clear sense that all this policy discussion means nothing, until we get in our hands implemented the measures that are needed to secure physical and actual control of the borders and real enforcement of whatever legal provision are put in place.
Only after that is done should we tolerate all this other stuff people are doing to try to satisfy the very special interests who have helped to create this massive problem because they were greedy for cheap labor that they could exploit without regard to the standards of America's quality of life that often prevails.
So, I think that's the first thing, and the second thing is that if we want to see that happen, people are going to have to take it in their hands to use their common sense and their votes in such a way as to insist that this priority be respected. And I think if they do that we're going to realize that once again, and we're seeing it already from some of these politicians, that when the people are clear, the politicians will shape up. But until we're clear, we're going to continue to get this mess.
STOCKWELL: Okay. One other question real quick off air real quick wanted to know if there will be any filming / recording of what takes place tomorrow night for some kind of internet download or for someone who can't come.
KEYES: Yes, there will be.
STOCKWELL: There will be?
KEYES: And I think . . . my speeches and things that I do are usually made available on RenewAmerica.us, which is the website that I work with . . .
STOCKWELL: Very good.
KEYES: . . . and that they have been very good about posting my [...]
STOCKWELL: RenewAmerica.us.
KEYES: That's right.
STOCKWELL: All right, Dr. Keyes, thanks so much for being a part of the show.
KEYES: Thank you for having me.
KEYES: Yes, I am. Hi.
STOCKWELL: Hey, good. You haven't been on my show since you were running for president.
KEYES: It's been a while, I guess.
STOCKWELL: It has been a while. Are you in Provo yet?
KEYES: No, I think I will be traveling tomorrow.
STOCKWELL: Okay. You're going to be at the Provo Library Ballroom tomorrow night, according to this press release I have.
KEYES: Um huh
STOCKWELL: You'll be speaking on solutions to America's border crisis.
KEYES: Um huh
STOCKWELL: Carmen Mercer, who is also spokeswoman for the National Minutemen Political Action Committee, will be there, and the speeches will be preceded by a, it says here, a free screening of prize-winning documentary of "Cochise County: Cries from the Border," and then a Q&A session.
And, of course, this has been a subject on my show, endlessly. It's been a subject of other talk show hosts here at K-TALK radio. So, I've always liked the way you think and the way you talk, and I consider it a privilege, sir, for you to be here on my show today.
KEYES: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it very much.
STOCKWELL: Yes, sir. So . . . it says here that you are a . . . it says, "Alan Keyes (I don't know whose web release this is, er news release this is), but it says National Minuteman leader. Are you a Minuteman leader?
KEYES: Well . . . I have been strongly supportive of their efforts, and our organizational infrastructure through the Declaration Alliance has helped them to get their word out to people around the country. And to develop sometimes, organizationally, it can require a little time before you can get 501c-4 status, or c-3 status, and all these other things that the law requires, so that people can do national fund raising and get their word out. And we essentially have simply lent our infrastructure to them, so that they could then jump start the effort
So, yes, I have been working with them, because I think they represent the common sense viewpoint of the American people and that that viewpoint needs to be implemented, because if we don't get control of the southern border it has national securities implications as well as leaving us in a position where we have what amounts to unrestricted illegal immigration coming into the country causing all kinds of problems.
STOCKWELL: Well, the President and the Secretary of State both refer to the Minutemen as vigilantes.
KEYES: Yes, and I find it sad that we have reached a point in this country that when people in America take an initiative, peacefully, sensibly, in an orderly way take an initiative to highlight a problem and to try to take an initiative to make sure it's dealt with, that's the spirit of self-government. That's how this country was founded in the first place. That's how it was opened up in the frontier. That's how things were built in economic terms
Same way as in World War II
STOCKWELL: Well, when you don't seem to have the support of the leading power of this nation, and he seems to, you know, one minute he's making all these business deals with Fox and then the next minute he says we're going to build a tower. And then Fox says, "What are you doing?" "Ah, well, . . . we're not . . . ." I mean doesn't it seem almost like an insurmountable task that you're taking upon yourselves to try protect and strengthen and secure this incredibly long border, when it doesn't seem like the government's behind it?
KEYES: Step number one, I think that the most important thing for our people to do is to stay true themselves in a common sense way what they believe is necessary and right for this country. That's a responsibility we have as citizens. We're supposed to have a system that then allows people to implement that sense of responsibility through their representatives and to get the kind of policy that will then reflect the common sense of the American people.
Sometimes that requires overcoming the resistance of leaders who are committed to serving special interests. Who are committed in this case to serving a vision of the future that actually involves, I think, the destruction of the American nation [...] in the name of some kind economic globalism. Some people are committed to that, but I think the overwhelming majority of the American people are not committed to that. And at the end of the day, the power in this country still belongs to the people who set up the Constitution in the first place. It doesn't say, "We, the government establish a constitution." No, the government is the result of a constitution ordained and established by the people of this country, who remain the ultimate authority, the sovereign authority for both constitution and law.
So, I think that it's not only perfectly appropriate. It is necessary for the health and success of our system as people bear their responsibility, take the initiative. And they're already, the Minutemen already have had an effect. I mean, there was a time when idea of having a border fence was just laughed out of court. Now, it's included every piece of legislation. At least, they're paying lip service.
STOCKWELL: Hold on. Hold on. Will you take calls?
KEYES: Sure.
STOCKWELL: All right. Hold on. 254-5855
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STOCKWELL: My guest is Alan Keyes, former candidate for the President of the United States, here an election or so ago. He will be speaking tomorrow night at Provo City Library Ballroom on the topic of solutions to America's border crisis. It begins at 6:30 p.m. It's free and open to the public.
Alan, I already have one criticism. It says you're being too nice. You're beating around the bush. They want you to come back out and lead the party to the greatness it once had.
KEYES: I'm being too nice? I think that my consideration, especially on an issue like this, is just to try to get people to do what's right, where as the physical security and survival [..] to lead this country. And I think a lot of leaders have abandoned that. I have basically said, and I believe that it's true, that the last 25 years of policy on this issue have been a betrayal by our political elites of the basic interest of the sovereign American people, and they are going to destroy us utterly if we don't take a handle on this and stand up and insist that a proper and rationale respect for our borders, beginning first and foremost with physical security, recognizing for instance what G.W. Bush doesn't want to see. He said in his speech that he doesn't want to militarize the borders. Well, the border's being militarized by terrorists, by drug dealers and others who are bringing automatic weapons and other elements of armed force to the business of violating our borders. The military exists to defend us against such threats and pretending that they don't exist isn't going to make them go away. We need to deal with them effectively. And the best estimate that I've seen suggests that we need a force properly trained of about 36,000 people. And we don't have anything like that. The days when we could have this kind of casual border police mentality are gone, and our leaders need to wake up to it.
STOCKWELL: Alan, we have three representatives from the state of Utah, and one of them in particular seems to have a different viewpoint than you do of where to stand on this issue.
KEYES: Well, that's true. I think we've been watching, I think, a kind of drama in the Congress of the United States. The Senate has gone off the deep end and has proposed a bill that includes provisions for guest workers that essentially opens the flood gates of uncontrolled immigration. At the same time, they make token gestures in the direction of what they call border security that will amount to nothing. And the combination of the two is a policy that is being criticized all over the place, as one of the worst pieces of legislation.
I heart Robert Rector yesterday say that it's the worst piece of legislation he'd ever seen, and this is the expert from the Heritage Foundation on these issues, who has done a lot of excellent work.
The House on the other hand has gotten the priorities straight and has a piece of legislation that focuses on physical border security, on proper enforcement of our immigration laws. If you don't have the capacity to control the borders, it doesn't matter what policy you write into law, because it's not going to make any difference. The situation is out of your control. That's the common sense of it. And I think that people with that common sense at the grassroots have to insist that our representatives respect it, and especially in the House of Representative that they not cave to the Senate's version that is a sell-out of American sovereignty and America's borders. It actually includes a provision that would require that we consult with the government of Mexico before we place a fence along the border. So, we now have to ask permission to defend the borders of the United States.
STOCKWELL: Ah, have you had any discussions with Congressman Cannon on this?
KEYES: I haven't had direct discussion. I know that he has been in the forefront of folks who are arguing for what they call the comprehensive approach, which is actually an approach that puts the cart way before the horse, in terms of pretending that we can have some kind of amnesty and guest worker program before we are actually in control of the situation of the borders and of law enforcement. That's a fiction. It's a delusion. And it's the kind of delusion that has governed our policy for the last 30 odd years, and it needs to end.
STOCKWELL: All right. Can you take some calls?
KEYES: Sure.
STOCKWELL: 254-5855, locally. 470-5855, in Provo. 670-5855, up to the north.
Jeff you're on with Alan Keyes.
JEFF HAYES: Good morning, Mr. Keyes. I'm Jeff Hayes with Executive Excellence Publications. We are a unique publishing clearinghouse of knowledge dealing with the movers and shakers of personal organizational leadership. Now we have contributors such as Steven Covey, Warren Dennis, Peter Drucker, etc. They contribute articles for our monthly publication. So, Mr. Keyes I'd like you to consider contributing an article on the principles you stand for, as it concerns leadership excellence, in an era almost totally in moral bankruptcy. Would you like to consider that? [...] you off the air.
KEYES: Sure. I'd be glad to do it.
HAYES: Great. I hope to be seeing you tomorrow evening then in Provo.
KEYES: I look forward to it. And I hope a lot of folks will be joining us there. Because this is one of those times, we've already seen it, as people at the grassroots are mobilizing, the politicians are finally being struck with the truth
STOCKWELL: All right, Jeff why don't you approach Alan about that tomorrow night and you can link up with him and do what you want to do.
HAYES: Thank you very much, Jack.
STOCKWELL: Yeah, you bet. That sounds good.
All right. So . . . hey, you know . . . now, let's get back to this immigration thing here, because you've got an awful lot more people in the House, and the House has the tendency to turn over a little more so than the Senate in the various elections, although the House still maintains a rather strong incumbency rate.
But from my understanding, the House's concept and the Senate's concept are so divergent I don't see some kind of joint resolution working this thing out.
KEYES: I hope there isn't one, because we're at a stage now where, rather than embrace any form of this amnesty that's being proposed in various ways, it would be better to have no bill at all, because a bad situation that will only make the whole situation of immigration worse isn't going to help us. And that's what the Senate bill is. You're talking essentially about provisions that will be lead to unrestricted flow of immigrants into this country, whatever they pretend.
And even the bill that's being proposed, I think, by Congressman Mike Pence, and he claims that some kind of compromise is actually just amnesty by another name and includes a guest worker provision that some have argued, including folks from Heritage, would be simply unrestricted ability of people around the world to come to America in unlimited numbers and would allow the profits to continue of having these special economic interests attempt essentially to undercut both the price of labor and the quality of life, economically, in this country.
I think Americans need to wake up, because we have situation where our government on this issue is being hijacked by a set of very narrow special interests that are working across purposes with the whole quality of life of the American people.
STOCKWELL: Okay, now, this cross purposes, this effort, this political or at least this immigration junta that they're trying to pull off here, from my point of view, from my perspective is to lead to an ever increasing globalist community and a diminution of American sovereignty to the point where there will essentially be no border between the U.S. and Mexico and the U.S. and Canada.
KEYES: Well, that's exactly right, and I think we see people acting on this concept, of the borderless concept, which is actually a concept that destroys the idea that we are a distinct nation. Look around the world. The kind of self-government that the American people enjoy is still not common throughout the globe. We need to defend the principle, and even though we represent a very diverse people
STOCKWELL: Okay, let me get Joel on here with you. Joel from Utah Valley, you're on with Alan Keyes.
JOEL: Hi. First of all, I'd like to thank you very much, Alan, for your clarification on the order of things that need to happen. The border control first is something that I think is an important issue, but I have a question that I've never seen anyone really directly answer, and that is, you've got a large party for amnesty, and you've got a large party with an unrealistic expectations that we can just round up everyone up and ship them back across the border. Where do we find the middle ground? And, if we implement procedures to enforce employers to have only legal immigrants and / or properly visa-ed immigrants, if we enforce that, then I can see it
KEYES: You see, before we get into that, though. I really have to keep reminding people that, unless you're suggesting that we have no borders anymore and people can just do whatever they please, including terrorists and everybody else, all discussion of law and policy and provision for dealing with this and that is a fiction, if we are not in control of the border. Do you agree with that?
JOEL: I agree.
KEYES: I don't understand how these people are saying that we'll put this provision in the law that you'll have to get this kind of visa if you want to come here and be a temporary guest worker, and so forth. None of that means anything if people can just walk across the border at will. Why should they care what you put in your laws if you can't enforce it?
Ah, and the President looked us in the eye and said that we don't have control of our borders. And I'm saying to myself, "Well, if we don't have control of your borders, you don't have the lawmaking ability. So, why are we discussing all of these provisions?" Let's get first things first. Because nothing we discuss, nothing we agree on, nothing we think is sensible in terms of dealing with this problem means anything if we're not in control of that border. That's step number one, and before anything else is done it must be taken care of. And that's where I think right now the discussion ought to end. People are looking and saying, "What about a constructive solution?" You've got no constructive solution, if you don't have the instruments that are necessary to implement it. With those instruments in your hand, you can then speak with confidence of what may need to be done, but we can't do that now.
STOCKWELL: Thanks for your call, Joel.
JOEL: Thank you.
STOCKWELL: We appreciate your input.
Now, in relation to that question that you're just asked now
KEYES: Um huh
STOCKWELL: Now, of all the places he could come, he comes to Utah! Your take on that.
KEYES: Well, I think, that we've had a situation where a foreign president is obviously trying to mount a kind of political campaign in this country in support of a policy that, however it may favor the Mexican elites and other economic special interests, it's totally contrary to the interests of our people and actually insults the integrity of our sovereignty and our right to govern ourselves under our constitution.
So, I think we need to be very wary of what is going on here. People are moving forward in such a way, as to essentially reduce our constitution to a scrap of meaningless paper, while they put in place mechanisms that will subvert and supersede the legislative mechanisms and constitutional mechanisms that embody our sovereignty and our ability to control matters within our own house that's subject to republican and representative self-government. That's what's going on here.
People make all kinds of economic arguments and so forth. But the key question is: are we willing, for the sake of some narrow economic special interest, to sacrifice the integrity of self-government in this country, which is the basis on which our people have been able to make sure that they can defend their rights, to have a quality of life that exceeds that of most other people anywhere in the world? I think that our ability to defend ourselves to a political system that is controlled by our people is the essential prerequisite of maintaining the economic quality of our lives. If we give it up, then I think we are going to move ourselves into the position that sadly a lot of these folks are fleeing, who are coming here from Mexico. One of the most class ridden, elite oppressed societies in the history of the world is right across our southern border. And I think there are some people who would like to import that kind of system into America. And we've got to say, "No."
STOCKWELL: And then you have a Senate sponsoring legislation who wants to get Mexico's permission before we do any border changes. What do you do with a senate like that?
KEYES: Well, I think you tell them where they can take that, and you need do that at the polling places. I'm joining with a group of folks and there are many who are now looking at this and saying, "Now, this isn't a matter of Democrat or Republican." We have got to insist that every politician in this country abide by their oaths, which is not to have allegiance to some globalism, not to have allegiance to some president of Mexico, not to have allegiance to some free trade arrangement and other things to serve the people who are lining their political coffers. They swear an oath to uphold, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution established by the people of the United States. And if they're not willing to do that, then we ought to kick them out.
And that means that in primary situations, if you've got somebody who insists on sacrificing the integrity of our borders and the sovereignty of our people, it's time to turn out against those people and say, "No," whatever party it is.
STOCKWELL: All right. We'll be right back with Alan Keyes. Darrell, you'll be next. Line available 254-5855.
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We're back.
We've got about 20 minutes before the top of the hour. Alan Keyes will be speaking tomorrow night, June 21st at the Provo Library Ballroom on "Solutions to America's Border Crisis." It is free
Several people lining up here. I ask you to be very brief. Darrell.
DARRELL: Hi Jack and Alan. Good article in today's Trib [Salt Lake Tribune] on page A8, concerning what we're talking about. It says "One social security number
KEYES: God knows what's going to happen to all those millions that have been stolen.
DARRELL: Well, this lady in California says that her social security number really gets around. It's been used by at least 81 people in 17 states, and, of course, illegals.
STOCKWELL: She's going to have a real tax problem next year then. Isn't she?
DARRELL: These are people that Utah welcomes with open arms, of course, even though what they do is illegal. Even the IRS says now that she owes $15,000 in back taxes, even though she hasn't worked in years. And more surprisingly the taxes are due from jobs in Texas, and she lives in California. The IRS knows, as it said in the paper, that numerous people are using her Social Security Number. Of course, they can't collect from them, I guess, so they're trying to collect the $15,000 from her.
KEYES: You know, one of the things that is hardest to stomach is that there is this big hemming and hawing about whether or not the Social Security Administration can share numbers that they know to be fraudulent with the enforcement element of the government when it comes to things like immigration. It's mind boggling. They have the information, and yet they are making an argument that they can't use this information which would help to deal with the problem.
HAYES: She has a problem, too, she says. She can no longer prove who I am.
STOCKWELL: Yeah. All right, Darrell. That's good enough. Thanks for your call, Darrell. I've got to move on here. Deanna, you have a comment for Alan?
DEANNA: Yes [unintelligible]
STOCKWELL: Deanna, you're going to need to speak up.
DEANNA: Okay. I just wanted to say that yesterday President Bush and Laura Bush publicly endorsed Chris Cannon, and urged all of us in Utah to vote for him. You know. To me, that is a clear sign of who Cannon is. He is one of those that they have over there in the House of Representatives to help pass along these bills for illegal immigration.
So, I urge everybody to go to the polls and kick him out of office and put someone that will be willing to listen to us, you know, the public. And I think that, you know, if we give the chance to Jacob, you know, he might to something or another candidate. You know, let's don't just buy what they say, because he's playing very, you know, oh, I am pro-legal immigration, and I want to solve this problem and all that. He's one of the ones who passed many bills to help them to get tuition and all this stuff. And so, I think, that we shouldn't fall for what President Bush and Laura Bush said yesterday about Chris Cannon. I think we should vote him out of office and that's the reason why they did this, because he's nervous. He knows that we are waking up. We should do that on June 27.
STOCKWELL: All right. Thank you.
KEYES: I think that, sadly, this is one of those policies areas where the President has simply turned away from the common sense of our people, and what I think has really been his sworn constitutional duty.
I thought it was breath taking in the speech that he gave on the subject, and that he would look us in the eye
And then he wants to come forward and say that in order to clean up the mess created by the incompetence and willful neglect of our interests by him and this political elite, we must then tolerate policies that will utterly subvert the identity of the American people, the integrity of our institutions and the sovereignty of our constitutional system. So, to remedy a problem that they caused because of their political ambitions, America must sacrifice itself. I think it's a travesty, and I think folks need to wake up and consider what's going on and vote accordingly.
STOCKWELL: All right. I'll offer a question. Since you were involved with the Reagan administration and the Reagan administration was granting amnesties, how do you feel about that now?
KEYES: I think it was a mistake. It was a mistake at the time. And I think many folks who have looked at that situation acknowledge it. But why was it a mistake? You know. It was a mistake because people said we're going to have self-enforcement and then completely turned their back on it. And that's what's been going on for the last twenty years.
STOCKWELL: Well, it sets the stage for . . .
KEYES: It's one of the reasons right now why I tell people, "Don't take a 'trust me' bill." Now, that's the same thing we got in '86. "Do this, and then trust us. We're going to have self-enforcement." They lied then, and I believe that unless we get the results in our hands first, we're to suffer the same fate now.
STOCKWELL: Yeah. Precisely. Precisely. You also support the efforts of the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps, and their attempts to actually build a fence. Do you think that's going to happen?
KEYES: Well, I think it is happening. I think that it is an initiative that's being taken in cooperation with some of the folks along the borders on their private land in the interest of trying to do what's necessary to safeguard their land, their homes, their families in what has become a very untenable situation, where folks are faced with the fact that folks coming across their land, using their resources, sometimes damaging and destroying their property, and they have no defense against it. So, they're taking the initiative that says, "Look. We're Americans and we're going to have to take a stand to defend ourselves." Doing it in a way that is lawful and that is peaceful, and yet that tries to take account of their interest.
My hope is, however, that that kind of initiative on the part of our people will shame this government into doing its job, because in point of fact the prime responsibility for the security of our borders falls in the hands of the federal government and that we need to insist that this job be done first and foremost.
We have a government meddling in all sorts of things that aren't their business at the national level, and yet they're neglecting one of the prime responsibilities of a national government, which is the defense of our borders. This is a disgrace.
STOCKWELL: We've only got a couple of minutes here or so left in this program. What do you want people to come away from the meeting tomorrow night feeling and thinking?
KEYES: Two things. I want them to come away with a clear sense that all this policy discussion means nothing, until we get in our hands implemented the measures that are needed to secure physical and actual control of the borders and real enforcement of whatever legal provision are put in place.
Only after that is done should we tolerate all this other stuff people are doing to try to satisfy the very special interests who have helped to create this massive problem because they were greedy for cheap labor that they could exploit without regard to the standards of America's quality of life that often prevails.
So, I think that's the first thing, and the second thing is that if we want to see that happen, people are going to have to take it in their hands to use their common sense and their votes in such a way as to insist that this priority be respected. And I think if they do that we're going to realize that once again, and we're seeing it already from some of these politicians, that when the people are clear, the politicians will shape up. But until we're clear, we're going to continue to get this mess.
STOCKWELL: Okay. One other question real quick off air real quick wanted to know if there will be any filming / recording of what takes place tomorrow night for some kind of internet download or for someone who can't come.
KEYES: Yes, there will be.
STOCKWELL: There will be?
KEYES: And I think . . . my speeches and things that I do are usually made available on RenewAmerica.us, which is the website that I work with . . .
STOCKWELL: Very good.
KEYES: . . . and that they have been very good about posting my [...]
STOCKWELL: RenewAmerica.us.
KEYES: That's right.
STOCKWELL: All right, Dr. Keyes, thanks so much for being a part of the show.
KEYES: Thank you for having me.