Radio interview
Alan Keyes on the Mancow Show in Illinois
August 11, 2004
ERICH "MANCOW" MULLER: Alan- -he's smooching in the studio. Alan, you'd probably get more votes on the air than talking to people in the back of the studio.
ALAN KEYES, ILLINOIS U.S. SENATE CANDIDATE: [laughs] All right.
MANCOW: Alan, how are you?
KEYES: I'm fine.
MANCOW: Welcome to the show. Good to see you, thank you.
[studio member: "This is cool. This is very cool."]
MANCOW: We've had you on a thousand times over the years, haven't we?
KEYES: I've been on before, yes. It's always a lot of fun.
MANCOW: You would've been a good president.
KEYES: Thank you.
[noise in studio]
MANCOW: Will you stop that annoying banging?
KEYES: [laughs]
MANCOW: You would have made a hell of a president.
KEYES: Thank you very much.
MANCOW: You said a lot of stuff that nobody else said and won't say. Basic things, commonsense things.
KEYES: Well, I try.
MANCOW: And then you crowd surfed. Remember that?
KEYES: Oh, yes, indeed. I certainly do. I can thank my daughter for that. I'd thank her every day. I thank God for my daughter, but then I thank my daughter for the fact that she was the one, she was the only voice who piped up, "Dad, do it, Dad!"
See, everybody else was against it, and my daughter was for it, and anybody who has a daughter knows who won that one.
[Stacy: "Exactly."]
MANCOW: What're your chances? You're running for Senator in Illinois. What are your chances?
KEYES: I think my chances are good, because I think I've been back and forth to Illinois a fair amount in the course of the years. There are a lot of folks here who believe as I do. Some of them had dropped out of the political arena, weren't voting, because they just never saw a choice that reflected what they believe, and I think they've been coming forward with intensity, saying, "Thank God! Let's get going." And I think that that's going to be a transformation, in fact, of the political possibilities here in the state.
MANCOW: Well, Alan, that's where I'm at. You just described me. And that is, disenchanted, Bush campaign- -on my show, I had Bush on my show plenty. I think he's been a poor president, actually, in many ways, when we're talking about freedoms and these sorts of things. And I'm not a Kerry fan.
So, are there a lot of us out there?
KEYES: Well, I think that there are a lot of people who are unenthused, because I think that- -do you know what politics has become these days? It's become an effort to figure out just what you need to say to manipulate enough people into voting for you.
MANCOW: Yes.
KEYES: The notion that you actually think through things based on what you really believe, and stand forward to present that clearly so people have a real choice, that seems to be something so few politicians understand.
And yet, if you don't do it, you are destroying the reality of democratic life. Because, if you do that, then people don't have a real choice. If you're manipulating me, I'm not really making the choice, am I?
[Stacy: "Right."]
KEYES: You've made the choice and fooled me into accepting the result. And that's not right. That's not election. That is, in point of fact, somebody else dictating the outcome, the people are only a kind of prop that's used to justify the result.
MANCOW: Yeah. I've found out when I talked to people, they're diehard lie-brals or dummycraps or Republicans or conservatives, they have no idea what the party stands for. They don't know these people and what they stand for. Obama, your competitor- -I've talked to people, they have no idea what he stands for.
Now, Stacy, who's standing to your right there, gonna vote for Obama because he's black, and has no idea what he stands for.
We had [Mike] Ditka on, and he said, look, of people will listen to Alan Keyes and not just vote Democrat because I'm black and I gotta vote Democrat, he might have a chance.
What do you think of that statement?
KEYES: Well, I frankly believe already that that's going to happen, partly because of the response I've been getting. I was just saying . . .
MANCOW: Well, this is the honeymoon period, though.
KEYES: Well, not necessarily. I've been through this electoral process several times.
MANCOW: [laughs] Yes, you have.
KEYES: And, as folks have been repeating ad nauseum, I like to preface this by saying, "Like Lincoln, I have lost a few times." See, I'm in good company.
And I've known that sometimes when you are in a situation and you campaign as a black Republican, you get a chilly reception.
[Stacy: "Absolutely.]
KEYES: That has not been the case. I repeat, that has not been the case here.
And I think that the reason it has not been the case is because, over the course of the last few years, a transformation has begun, and people who are really looking at certain things that are emerging, including some moral issues, the one that I think is most salient right now is the issue of traditional marriage.
And I think the community that is now coming forward is not, "Am I black?" A lot of people are approaching me on the basis of, "This is a guy who, when it comes to marriage, when it comes to God's authority, when it comes to faith, he's where I am," and they're not looking at me as a Republican, because they know good and well that I've stood against Republicans on the grounds of principles that I derive from my strong heart and my strong faith.
MANCOW: Right. As I have.
KEYES: So, it's not a matter of party, it's really a matter of principle- -and it's a matter of those things that are derived from that faith that you never let go of.
And I've told people this. You know, there are Republicans I will not campaign for because they stand for things I cannot in any way accept.
[Stacy: "Right."]
MANCOW: I go back and forth, and yeah, I understand what you're saying.
I've found that nobody understands what Obama stands for. He spoke at the convention, you have to admit he was masterful, it was a great speech. Yes?
KEYES: [pauses] Well . . .
MANCOW: Come on.
KEYES: No, no, no. I'm going to acknowledge that.
MANCOW: Look, I'm not going to vote for him. I'm going to vote for you, Alan.
KEYES: I'm going to acknowledge that. But let's remember what we're dealing with. Right? At a convention you are always dealing with a scripted appearance.
MANCOW: Yeah.
KEYES: They're standing there. They're reading a speech. He read it very well, I will grant that.
MANCOW: Yes.
[Stacy: "Right."]
KEYES: But a scripted appearance tells you how well somebody put the script together, and it tells you he's a great performer.
MANCOW: Right.
KEYES: But the only way you know whether that corresponds to real substance is in a situation where he has to draw on his own resources, come up with answers that aren't scripted. And that's a debate style situation.
MANCOW: And you think you'll carve him up?
KEYES: I don't know. I never do this: other people can make whatever judgments they like. He appears to be a talented, intelligent guy. He's got good training and background.
[Stacy: "Civil rights attorney."]
KEYES: There's no presumption that Alan Keyes or anybody else is going to carve him up. He should give a good account of himself. If he does . . .
MANCOW: Alan, Alan. Let me interrupt you, but in this city I see it. Look, I drive four times a day through Cabrini-Green, and I- -you know, look, I see it. I see what this city has done, and it's always, "Well, I'm black. I'm voting Democratic. They sent a bus for me, they gave me a free sandwich, so I'm voting." And, you know . . .
KEYES: I . . .
MANCOW: No, wait, wait. Let me finish. And nothing is getting any better, but she's going to continue to vote Democratic. She's going to vote for the black guy that's a Democrat because- -and things never get better, and they just keep getting served garbage. The schools are garbage, the housing is garbage.
KEYES: No, no . . .
MANCOW: Yes, it is! I see it. Why don't people wake up and go, "Wow, I'm still in the ghetto. We've been voting Democratic for a couple hundred years. It ain't working"?
[studio member laughs]
KEYES: I am not going to stand here and say I believe, first, that . . .
MANCOW: "Here's your government cheese. Vote Democratic!"
KEYES: Factually, what you're saying may be correct on the record.
MANCOW: You know it is.
KEYES: Now, hold on.
MANCOW: You know it is.
KEYES: Why is it, though, that people can't look behind that result and understand that a complex community of real people and individuals who are different in who they are, where they're coming from, what their experience has been- -behind that result you're talking about are real people. OK?
MANCOW: Right.
KEYES: I have, in spite of everything, never lost my understanding of that fact. People can be imprisoned by experience, but that doesn't mean they're not people. That doesn't mean they're not trying to think for themselves.
MANCOW: But that's not what I said. That is not what I said.
KEYES: I know, but let me finish, though.
That means that, yes, to break patterns of behavior takes time, it takes patience, it takes love, but if you're willing to put in the time, put in the patience, and if you approach people with a loving understanding that comes from the fact that you know who they are- -because, after all, when you talk about this, I am a Republican. EVERYBODY in my family is a Democrat!
You're not talking about somebody who's- -I have lived with this all my life.
MANCOW: Thanksgiving's got to be tough. Yeah.
[Stacy laughs]
KEYES: I've gone back and forth with my brothers, with my father when he was alive, with my mother. Now, did that mean we didn't love each other? Did that mean I don't know what complex beings they are?
MANCOW: So, are you a sellout? Does your family think you are a sellout?
KEYES: No, actually. I think my family has a lot of respect for me, as is good in families, but that doesn't mean they agree with me.
It also doesn't mean, by the way- -over the years I've watched, there's been a convergence of views on some things, and on other things we still deeply disagree.
MANCOW: Right.
[Stacy: "Right."]
KEYES: All right? The same thing is true. And if people are standing on common ground- -and right now I think we're finally getting into a position where the issues that represent the common ground of faith are going to become more important than labels and partisanship. And that's what's going to be powerfully important this time around.
MANCOW: Alan Keyes is here. It's one of the big races in the country.
[Stacy: "Oh, yeah."]
MANCOW: This thing's getting a lot of attention. Alan, I hope you'll understand here. I have to go to my favorite living human being.
KEYES: That's impressive.
MANCOW: Yeah.
KEYES: I'm waiting.
MANCOW: I think the greatest, not even American, the greatest living human being in the world. Ladies and gentlemen, William Shatner.
[laughter]
MANCOW: And I ain't kidding. Bill, good morning.
WILLIAM SHATNER: That's funny. Good morning. I was listening to you guys, and it's very interesting. I don't think the issues are broad enough. You should be talking FCC, you should be talking environment, you should be talking our personal freedoms.
MANCOW: Well, I said- -you weren't on the show yet- -I said earlier I'm not going to be voting for Bush because of the freedoms that we've lost, and under the guise of this terrorism.
SHATNER: What does Alan say about that?
KEYES: I understand the concern, and in fact have been articulating it everywhere I go, but I don't think you can blame the president for the danger we're facing on that front.
The president's doing his job. As executive, he has to respond to the emergency, seeking those powers that are necessary to deal with it.
The people who are supposed to make sure that when he does so, he doesn't overstep the bounds of our liberties, that's Congress! That's why they're given oversight. That's why they're supposed to declare war. That's why they were supposed to look carefully at the Patriot Act and not create pitfalls that could become the death of our liberty.
MANCOW: Yeah. Most of them have admitted they haven't read it. We're talking about how grocery stores are being right now being picketed. They have to picket a mile away because of terrorist threats.
[Stacy: "Right"]
MANCOW: You can't picket in front of the Democratic convention, the Republican convention. You have to be set up two miles away to protest. Is that American?
[studio member: "And nobody sees you."]
KEYES: Right. It's crazy.
MANCOW: Do we have to allow our wives and our daughters to be molested at the airport under the guise of terrorism? I just, I'm sorry. I think it's a disgrace. I really do, and I hate it.
KEYES: Well, you know . . . ah, sorry.
MANCOW: Ah, Bill- -hold on a second, Alan. Bill?
SHATNER: Yes.
MANCOW: Bill you and I- -and I want to mention this. We are raising money for cops' children, cops killed in the line of duty. There's other charities involved, but that's the one I'm most passionate about.
SHATNER: Yes, both of us. And it's Chicago cops.
MANCOW: That's right. But people are coming from all over America for this thing. I think the whole Fox New Channel team- -a lot people are coming.
- -we have to say to your audience, in addition to listening to Alan Keyes and what he has to say, please, Alan, why don't you come on Labor Day weekend that Sunday?
MANCOW: He's shaking his head yes.
KEYES: I'd love to.
SHATNER: Fantastic.
MANCOW: It'll be great. And let's get Obama out there, his competitor.
[laughter]
SHATNER: On the other side. We'll get Obama out there. That's a great idea.
[studio member: "Debates with paintball."]
KEYES: Wait a minute. No, if you want him to come, promise there won't be a debate, 'cause he's backing away from those.
[laughter]
SHATNER: No, no. We'll give you yellow paintballs and we'll give him brown.
KEYES: Wait a minute. Give me yellow ones and give him brown? I think it'd outta be- -wait a minute, given what's going on, I think the colors ought to be reversed.
MANCOW: We gotta shoot him with the yellow because he's a coward.
SHATNER: Well, I just- -that was my thought.
KEYES: [laughs]
SHATNER: You'd be covered in brown, and you'd have to fight your way out. You know what I mean?
KEYES: [laughs]
MANCOW: Hey, Bill. They're saying you're going to save the entire network with your new show. What's it called?
SHATNER: Boston Legal.
MANCOW: And this is the character that you played on another show.
SHATNER: On the Practice. All of it being on Sunday at 10:00, but that's October, and we've got plenty to talk about then.
MANCOW: Danny Crane, right?
SHATNER: Danny Crane and an album coming out on October 5th, but that's not the important thing.
MANCOW: Wait, wait. Bill, Bill. How cool was it for me to sit at Gibson's and run lines with you" That was a treat.
SHATNER: That was a cake. And how cool is it for you to be playing one of the numbers on that album as the first guy to do it.
MANCOW: We have the world debut of it, and I want to play it. I think even Alan's going to like this.
[conversation with Mancow and Shatner on albums]
MANCOW: Saturday, Sunday, and Monday we're doing the paintball thing.
SHATNER: Exactly. And that Sunday is the Sunday of the Labor Day weekend, and everybody who's listening should come and visit with us, including Alan Keyes, and we'll have a ball.
MANCOW: Alan Keyes is going to come, and this is the only time I'll ever tell you, you should bring your kids to this. They will have fun like you wouldn't believe. They have high-quality movie sets, and it's just good fun. It's the greatest in the world for paintball. It's very popular.
[Stacy: "And it's a great cause."]
[conversation on the paintball charity event]
[Mancow plays Shatner's song "Common People"]
MANCOW: Alan Keyes, what do you think? Your review.
[laughter]
KEYES: Well, I think it's pretty good. It's just based on a bad premise, though.
MANCOW: Alan Keyes is here, ladies and gentlemen!
[laughter]
KEYES: No, no, no. Why did I say that? You should say, "Why did he say that?" See, where's my straight man here?
[Stacy: "Why would you say that?"]
KEYES: Because when you really get to know the world, you realize there ARE no common people.
[studio member: "Ah! Beautiful."]
[Stacy: "Amazing. Oh my gosh."]
MANCOW: God bless you, Alan Keyes. Now we've got a guy on the phone that says he is Alan Keyes and that we've got an imposter.
KEYES: [laughs]
MANCOW: Hello? Hello?
[caller does Alan Keyes impression]
MANCOW: Guy trying to do an impression of you. How would you rate it?
KEYES: BAD!
[laughter]
KEYES: No, that wasn't an impression of me. [laughs]
MANCOW: Here's my fear about you getting elected. You're not going to try to become a radio guy and come up against me now, are you?.
KEYES: That was . . . Oh, no.
MANCOW: OK. All right.
KEYES: That was actually, I think, an impression of my opponent. Why did I say that? I said that because my opponent, in his speech before the Democratic National Convention, was actually somebody trying to a bad impression of Alan Keyes.
[studio member: "Oh, man!"]
KEYES: Talking as if he actually believed in conservatism and the importance of responsibility in education, and so forth. I was one of those people watching that speech, and I actually said, you know, I know that he's a Democrat, he's pro-abortion, and all of this, but just listening to that speech, he didn't sound like a socialist. He sounded like somebody who might be a JFK liberal.
That was what shocked me when I looked at his record, though.
MANCOW: Yeah. He's a socialist.
KEYES: He's not a socialist, he's a hard, hard Left socialist.
He's a socialist who subscribes to everything that the hardest Left people you encounter in the classrooms on the campuses subscribe to.
MANCOW: And that's not what America feels. America doesn't believe that.
KEYES: I don't think so. So, that's why he's gotta put on a mask. He put on a mask at the Democratic National Convention convention.
MANCOW: What did you think of Jesse Jackson looking on. OK? The video was hilarious to me of Jesse looking on like Gollum. "My precious."
KEYES: Well, I'll have to tell you that I cannot offer you an opinion about that because I've read Obama's speech and I've seen clips of it, but I, as a general rule, didn't watch the Democratic National Convention. There are things I just don't have the stomach for.
MANCOW: Did you see the scene where John Kerry's daughter talked about how John Kerry gave her hamster mouth-to-mouth, pulled it out of a lake, and they flashed to Ted Kennedy?
KEYES: No, no, no. Did not.
MANCOW: I mean, that was pretty funny, too. OK. Alan, you're a good talker. We have you for limited time. I want to ask you some basic questions. Can you give me short answers?
KEYES: I don't know. We'll see.
MANCOW: Oh, no. This is not gonna work the way I want it to.
[Stacy: "I have a question, too."]
MANCOW: I think our school systems are awful. I think the whole system has to be redone. Education. What are you going to do?
KEYES: Education ought to be based upon empowering parents to that they can send their children . . .
MANCOW: School choice? School Choice?
KEYES: Let me finish . . . send their children to schools that reflect their faith and values- -and the money, we, the public, spend on education should follow the choice of the parents, not the choice of bureaucrats and politicians.
[studio member: "Wow."]
MANCOW: So, you're for school choice?
KEYES: Absolutely. That's what that just said. The reason that was longer is because I don't deal in slogans. No. School choice is a label. I deal in ideas, and I must express the ideas. I won't talk in labels. It's not who I am.
[studio member: "Wow."]
STACY: How do you feel about abortion?
KEYES: It's sin, and I'm against it. It violates the most fundamental principles of our way of life. We are created equal. And that means that your life's worth is not determined by your mother's choice or any human choice, it was determined by the choice of the Creator, God. That's what America's principle says, and abortion simply violates that principle and is deeply wrong.
MANCOW: What about unions?
KEYES: I think that unions were important steps forward for workers, and I think that there is no way we would have seen the advances in this country in the quality of life for our working people if they hadn't organized their strength in order to make sure that they weren't being atomized and taken apart.
On the other hand, I also believe that employers need to be free in that bargaining process to exert their leverage. Both sides should be able to organize their strengths and come to a conclusion at the bargaining table.
MANCOW: Alan, I was at one of the big conventions, and I met you briefly and I met a lot of these guys when you were running for president, and the attitude from the candidates was, "This is a coronation. Bush has it." Everybody in the beginning thought Bush had it, that that was part of a script.
Was I wrong? Were they wrong? Was that the feeling you had? Did you think you had a chance when you ran against Bush for president?
KEYES: Well, actually, no. I explained to people at the time, and I said it continually during both my presidential campaigns that my objective was to run a message and to make sure that that message was clear and that it was there as a standard by which the candidates could be judged, so that people who believe as I do would have a voice.
MANCOW: Live, I saw you speak two times, and there were, you know, all these people running for president, and everybody would go nuts. You got the biggest applause, the biggest reaction, everybody agreed with what you said, and I went, "Well, this is the guy! This is the guy that believes what I believe," and everybody went, "Well, yeah, he doesn't have a chance."
I never understood that.
KEYES: I never have, either.
MANCOW: "That's the guy we want! But you know what, Bush has a better shot of winning!"
KEYES: It's one of the things- -can I say a word to every . . .
MANCOW: Is it a black thing?
KEYES: No. To everybody out there who believes as I do, if you do that, then the things you believe in will never win. You are being manipulated into believing that there's a winner before the election takes place.
MANCOW: Sure.
KEYES: The election determines the winner, so how do you know the winner before election day? It is so manipulative, it is so deceptive.
MANCOW: By who, the media? Or by who?
KEYES: It's everyone- -the media, the system. Think about what it means to say that before the election has taken place, you know the winner. It means the people don't matter, they're just a prop!
MANCOW: Right. Well, the pollsters always claim they know everything.
Who's going to be president in a year from now?
KEYES: G. W. Bush will pull it off, I think.
MANCOW: OK. We had Ditka on yesterday talking about you. Do you want to hear it? Do you want to hear what Mike Ditka had to say about you?
KEYES: Sure. Sure, sure, sure. Why not?
KEYES: I'm fired up. Let's go!
[laughter]
KEYES: That's a good locker room speech. I'll take it, coach! You know, let's go onto the field!
[Stacy: "Yeah, it was. It was."]
MANCOW: Alan, Alan. You've been a good friend of this show, Alan, I gotta tell you. Just for the sake of material- -and as a guy that's done a radio show, you know what I'm talking about. Just for the sake of material, Ditka as our senator. He gets liquored up, he flips off the cameras, he screams. It would've been fun. It would have been fun to do a show with him as a senator.
But ah, there's a lot of glow around this Obama. A lot of glow around him. You know.
KEYES: You know what, I think that people ought to remember. Remember that scene from the Wizard of Oz . . .
MANCOW: But nobody was running against him.
KEYES: Remember that scene from the Wizard of Oz where the big head, the glowing head, talks?
[Stacy: "Yeah"]
KEYES: And so forth and so on.
MANCOW: Yes. The mighty Oz.
KEYES: And there's the mighty Oz with this big head, he's floating around. There was a glow around him, too.
MANCOW: Right.
KEYES: But when you went behind, there was just this little bitty guy, you know.
[Stacy: "It's true."]
MANCOW: So, you're saying, behind the big curtain, we're going to see a little commie?
KEYES: I'm not saying it. I want people to look at the events of the last couple of days. He talked like he was Abraham Lincoln or Stephen Douglas when he was facing Jack Ryan. Six debates, Lincoln-Douglas. He talked like he was Muhammad Ali when this seat was empty and the Republican Party was confused: "I'll take on all comers. I'll debate whoever the Republicans put up." No talk of backing away then.
I step into the race, I hadn't been in the ring 24 hours, he holds a press conference and starts jumping toward the exists. Out of the ring he goes.
MANCOW: He will not debate you. He will not debate you?
KEYES: No. No, he's gone from . . .
MANCOW: That's a disgrace!
KEYES: . . . six debates. Wait. No, he knows better than that. He's gone from six debates to two all of a sudden.
[Stacy: "Right."]
MANCOW: So, there will be a debate.
KEYES: He is backpedaling and backing away as fast he can. You know?
MANCOW: There will be some debates. That'll be good. That'll be exciting.
KEYES: Wait a minute, though. I don't know. We will see what happens, because the problem right now isn't about debates, y'all. This guy has stood up and said he's ready to go to the United States Senate. Then the other day, he says, "Oh, he's from out of state. This was an instate offer," and so forth, acting like because I've been asked to come from Maryland to serve the Illinois people, he has some excuse. I'd like to tell him right now. He goes into the U.S. Senate, he's going to find 98 of the most talented and capable people from other states. If he can't handle me, he can't handle them. He doesn't belong in the U.S. Senate.
MANCOW: Must . . . vote . . . Keyes.
[Stacy: "Now I'm hypnotized!"]
MANCOW: You've convinced me. Alan, thanks for coming by.
KEYES: Now, wait a minute. I want to set a standard for myself.
MANCOW: Yes.
KEYES: Stacy, was it?
STACY: Yes, it's Stacy.
KEYES: He said that you're not going to vote for me.
STACY: Well, let me tell you what . . .
KEYES: Now, wait, wait. Let me finish. I am willing to let Stacy be a standard for me. I want you to watch this campaign. Don't say anything. Watch. Promise me you'll listen.
STACY: I will.
KEYES: And I want to come back to this show and find out what difference it makes.
I believe I can win you over, and I'll set it as a challenge for myself.
STACY: And I accept.
MANCOW: And we're going to play paintball together with Captain Kirk.
[studio member: "I want to make buttons for this guy! I'm telling you. I want to put up a poster somewhere!"]
MANCOW: Onward, Christian soldiers. All right.
ALAN KEYES, ILLINOIS U.S. SENATE CANDIDATE: [laughs] All right.
MANCOW: Alan, how are you?
KEYES: I'm fine.
MANCOW: Welcome to the show. Good to see you, thank you.
[studio member: "This is cool. This is very cool."]
MANCOW: We've had you on a thousand times over the years, haven't we?
KEYES: I've been on before, yes. It's always a lot of fun.
MANCOW: You would've been a good president.
KEYES: Thank you.
[noise in studio]
MANCOW: Will you stop that annoying banging?
KEYES: [laughs]
MANCOW: You would have made a hell of a president.
KEYES: Thank you very much.
MANCOW: You said a lot of stuff that nobody else said and won't say. Basic things, commonsense things.
KEYES: Well, I try.
MANCOW: And then you crowd surfed. Remember that?
KEYES: Oh, yes, indeed. I certainly do. I can thank my daughter for that. I'd thank her every day. I thank God for my daughter, but then I thank my daughter for the fact that she was the one, she was the only voice who piped up, "Dad, do it, Dad!"
See, everybody else was against it, and my daughter was for it, and anybody who has a daughter knows who won that one.
[Stacy: "Exactly."]
MANCOW: What're your chances? You're running for Senator in Illinois. What are your chances?
KEYES: I think my chances are good, because I think I've been back and forth to Illinois a fair amount in the course of the years. There are a lot of folks here who believe as I do. Some of them had dropped out of the political arena, weren't voting, because they just never saw a choice that reflected what they believe, and I think they've been coming forward with intensity, saying, "Thank God! Let's get going." And I think that that's going to be a transformation, in fact, of the political possibilities here in the state.
MANCOW: Well, Alan, that's where I'm at. You just described me. And that is, disenchanted, Bush campaign
So, are there a lot of us out there?
KEYES: Well, I think that there are a lot of people who are unenthused, because I think that
MANCOW: Yes.
KEYES: The notion that you actually think through things based on what you really believe, and stand forward to present that clearly so people have a real choice, that seems to be something so few politicians understand.
And yet, if you don't do it, you are destroying the reality of democratic life. Because, if you do that, then people don't have a real choice. If you're manipulating me, I'm not really making the choice, am I?
[Stacy: "Right."]
KEYES: You've made the choice and fooled me into accepting the result. And that's not right. That's not election. That is, in point of fact, somebody else dictating the outcome, the people are only a kind of prop that's used to justify the result.
MANCOW: Yeah. I've found out when I talked to people, they're diehard lie-brals or dummycraps or Republicans or conservatives, they have no idea what the party stands for. They don't know these people and what they stand for. Obama, your competitor
Now, Stacy, who's standing to your right there, gonna vote for Obama because he's black, and has no idea what he stands for.
We had [Mike] Ditka on, and he said, look, of people will listen to Alan Keyes and not just vote Democrat because I'm black and I gotta vote Democrat, he might have a chance.
What do you think of that statement?
KEYES: Well, I frankly believe already that that's going to happen, partly because of the response I've been getting. I was just saying . . .
MANCOW: Well, this is the honeymoon period, though.
KEYES: Well, not necessarily. I've been through this electoral process several times.
MANCOW: [laughs] Yes, you have.
KEYES: And, as folks have been repeating ad nauseum, I like to preface this by saying, "Like Lincoln, I have lost a few times." See, I'm in good company.
And I've known that sometimes when you are in a situation and you campaign as a black Republican, you get a chilly reception.
[Stacy: "Absolutely.]
KEYES: That has not been the case. I repeat, that has not been the case here.
And I think that the reason it has not been the case is because, over the course of the last few years, a transformation has begun, and people who are really looking at certain things that are emerging, including some moral issues, the one that I think is most salient right now is the issue of traditional marriage.
And I think the community that is now coming forward is not, "Am I black?" A lot of people are approaching me on the basis of, "This is a guy who, when it comes to marriage, when it comes to God's authority, when it comes to faith, he's where I am," and they're not looking at me as a Republican, because they know good and well that I've stood against Republicans on the grounds of principles that I derive from my strong heart and my strong faith.
MANCOW: Right. As I have.
KEYES: So, it's not a matter of party, it's really a matter of principle
And I've told people this. You know, there are Republicans I will not campaign for because they stand for things I cannot in any way accept.
[Stacy: "Right."]
MANCOW: I go back and forth, and yeah, I understand what you're saying.
I've found that nobody understands what Obama stands for. He spoke at the convention, you have to admit he was masterful, it was a great speech. Yes?
KEYES: [pauses] Well . . .
MANCOW: Come on.
KEYES: No, no, no. I'm going to acknowledge that.
MANCOW: Look, I'm not going to vote for him. I'm going to vote for you, Alan.
KEYES: I'm going to acknowledge that. But let's remember what we're dealing with. Right? At a convention you are always dealing with a scripted appearance.
MANCOW: Yeah.
KEYES: They're standing there. They're reading a speech. He read it very well, I will grant that.
MANCOW: Yes.
[Stacy: "Right."]
KEYES: But a scripted appearance tells you how well somebody put the script together, and it tells you he's a great performer.
MANCOW: Right.
KEYES: But the only way you know whether that corresponds to real substance is in a situation where he has to draw on his own resources, come up with answers that aren't scripted. And that's a debate style situation.
MANCOW: And you think you'll carve him up?
KEYES: I don't know. I never do this: other people can make whatever judgments they like. He appears to be a talented, intelligent guy. He's got good training and background.
[Stacy: "Civil rights attorney."]
KEYES: There's no presumption that Alan Keyes or anybody else is going to carve him up. He should give a good account of himself. If he does . . .
MANCOW: Alan, Alan. Let me interrupt you, but in this city I see it. Look, I drive four times a day through Cabrini-Green, and I
KEYES: I . . .
MANCOW: No, wait, wait. Let me finish. And nothing is getting any better, but she's going to continue to vote Democratic. She's going to vote for the black guy that's a Democrat because
KEYES: No, no . . .
MANCOW: Yes, it is! I see it. Why don't people wake up and go, "Wow, I'm still in the ghetto. We've been voting Democratic for a couple hundred years. It ain't working"?
[studio member laughs]
KEYES: I am not going to stand here and say I believe, first, that . . .
MANCOW: "Here's your government cheese. Vote Democratic!"
KEYES: Factually, what you're saying may be correct on the record.
MANCOW: You know it is.
KEYES: Now, hold on.
MANCOW: You know it is.
KEYES: Why is it, though, that people can't look behind that result and understand that a complex community of real people and individuals who are different in who they are, where they're coming from, what their experience has been
MANCOW: Right.
KEYES: I have, in spite of everything, never lost my understanding of that fact. People can be imprisoned by experience, but that doesn't mean they're not people. That doesn't mean they're not trying to think for themselves.
MANCOW: But that's not what I said. That is not what I said.
KEYES: I know, but let me finish, though.
That means that, yes, to break patterns of behavior takes time, it takes patience, it takes love, but if you're willing to put in the time, put in the patience, and if you approach people with a loving understanding that comes from the fact that you know who they are
You're not talking about somebody who's
MANCOW: Thanksgiving's got to be tough. Yeah.
[Stacy laughs]
KEYES: I've gone back and forth with my brothers, with my father when he was alive, with my mother. Now, did that mean we didn't love each other? Did that mean I don't know what complex beings they are?
MANCOW: So, are you a sellout? Does your family think you are a sellout?
KEYES: No, actually. I think my family has a lot of respect for me, as is good in families, but that doesn't mean they agree with me.
It also doesn't mean, by the way
MANCOW: Right.
[Stacy: "Right."]
KEYES: All right? The same thing is true. And if people are standing on common ground
MANCOW: Alan Keyes is here. It's one of the big races in the country.
[Stacy: "Oh, yeah."]
MANCOW: This thing's getting a lot of attention. Alan, I hope you'll understand here. I have to go to my favorite living human being.
KEYES: That's impressive.
MANCOW: Yeah.
KEYES: I'm waiting.
MANCOW: I think the greatest, not even American, the greatest living human being in the world. Ladies and gentlemen, William Shatner.
[laughter]
MANCOW: And I ain't kidding. Bill, good morning.
WILLIAM SHATNER: That's funny. Good morning. I was listening to you guys, and it's very interesting. I don't think the issues are broad enough. You should be talking FCC, you should be talking environment, you should be talking our personal freedoms.
MANCOW: Well, I said
SHATNER: What does Alan say about that?
KEYES: I understand the concern, and in fact have been articulating it everywhere I go, but I don't think you can blame the president for the danger we're facing on that front.
The president's doing his job. As executive, he has to respond to the emergency, seeking those powers that are necessary to deal with it.
The people who are supposed to make sure that when he does so, he doesn't overstep the bounds of our liberties, that's Congress! That's why they're given oversight. That's why they're supposed to declare war. That's why they were supposed to look carefully at the Patriot Act and not create pitfalls that could become the death of our liberty.
MANCOW: Yeah. Most of them have admitted they haven't read it. We're talking about how grocery stores are being right now being picketed. They have to picket a mile away because of terrorist threats.
[Stacy: "Right"]
MANCOW: You can't picket in front of the Democratic convention, the Republican convention. You have to be set up two miles away to protest. Is that American?
[studio member: "And nobody sees you."]
KEYES: Right. It's crazy.
MANCOW: Do we have to allow our wives and our daughters to be molested at the airport under the guise of terrorism? I just, I'm sorry. I think it's a disgrace. I really do, and I hate it.
KEYES: Well, you know . . . ah, sorry.
MANCOW: Ah, Bill
SHATNER: Yes.
MANCOW: Bill you and I
SHATNER: Yes, both of us. And it's Chicago cops.
MANCOW: That's right. But people are coming from all over America for this thing. I think the whole Fox New Channel team
-
[conversation with Shatner on the Hundred Club of Cook County charity benefit on Labor Day, featuring Celebrity Paintball with Shatner and Mancow]
MANCOW: He's shaking his head yes.
KEYES: I'd love to.
SHATNER: Fantastic.
MANCOW: It'll be great. And let's get Obama out there, his competitor.
[laughter]
SHATNER: On the other side. We'll get Obama out there. That's a great idea.
[studio member: "Debates with paintball."]
KEYES: Wait a minute. No, if you want him to come, promise there won't be a debate, 'cause he's backing away from those.
[laughter]
SHATNER: No, no. We'll give you yellow paintballs and we'll give him brown.
KEYES: Wait a minute. Give me yellow ones and give him brown? I think it'd outta be
MANCOW: We gotta shoot him with the yellow because he's a coward.
SHATNER: Well, I just
KEYES: [laughs]
SHATNER: You'd be covered in brown, and you'd have to fight your way out. You know what I mean?
KEYES: [laughs]
MANCOW: Hey, Bill. They're saying you're going to save the entire network with your new show. What's it called?
SHATNER: Boston Legal.
MANCOW: And this is the character that you played on another show.
SHATNER: On the Practice. All of it being on Sunday at 10:00, but that's October, and we've got plenty to talk about then.
MANCOW: Danny Crane, right?
SHATNER: Danny Crane and an album coming out on October 5th, but that's not the important thing.
MANCOW: Wait, wait. Bill, Bill. How cool was it for me to sit at Gibson's and run lines with you" That was a treat.
SHATNER: That was a cake. And how cool is it for you to be playing one of the numbers on that album as the first guy to do it.
MANCOW: We have the world debut of it, and I want to play it. I think even Alan's going to like this.
SHATNER: Exactly. And that Sunday is the Sunday of the Labor Day weekend, and everybody who's listening should come and visit with us, including Alan Keyes, and we'll have a ball.
MANCOW: Alan Keyes is going to come, and this is the only time I'll ever tell you, you should bring your kids to this. They will have fun like you wouldn't believe. They have high-quality movie sets, and it's just good fun. It's the greatest in the world for paintball. It's very popular.
[Stacy: "And it's a great cause."]
[Mancow plays Shatner's song "Common People"]
[laughter]
KEYES: Well, I think it's pretty good. It's just based on a bad premise, though.
MANCOW: Alan Keyes is here, ladies and gentlemen!
[laughter]
KEYES: No, no, no. Why did I say that? You should say, "Why did he say that?" See, where's my straight man here?
[Stacy: "Why would you say that?"]
KEYES: Because when you really get to know the world, you realize there ARE no common people.
[studio member: "Ah! Beautiful."]
[Stacy: "Amazing. Oh my gosh."]
MANCOW: God bless you, Alan Keyes. Now we've got a guy on the phone that says he is Alan Keyes and that we've got an imposter.
KEYES: [laughs]
MANCOW: Hello? Hello?
KEYES: BAD!
[laughter]
KEYES: No, that wasn't an impression of me. [laughs]
MANCOW: Here's my fear about you getting elected. You're not going to try to become a radio guy and come up against me now, are you?.
KEYES: That was . . . Oh, no.
MANCOW: OK. All right.
KEYES: That was actually, I think, an impression of my opponent. Why did I say that? I said that because my opponent, in his speech before the Democratic National Convention, was actually somebody trying to a bad impression of Alan Keyes.
[studio member: "Oh, man!"]
KEYES: Talking as if he actually believed in conservatism and the importance of responsibility in education, and so forth. I was one of those people watching that speech, and I actually said, you know, I know that he's a Democrat, he's pro-abortion, and all of this, but just listening to that speech, he didn't sound like a socialist. He sounded like somebody who might be a JFK liberal.
That was what shocked me when I looked at his record, though.
MANCOW: Yeah. He's a socialist.
KEYES: He's not a socialist, he's a hard, hard Left socialist.
He's a socialist who subscribes to everything that the hardest Left people you encounter in the classrooms on the campuses subscribe to.
MANCOW: And that's not what America feels. America doesn't believe that.
KEYES: I don't think so. So, that's why he's gotta put on a mask. He put on a mask at the Democratic National Convention convention.
MANCOW: What did you think of Jesse Jackson looking on. OK? The video was hilarious to me of Jesse looking on like Gollum. "My precious."
KEYES: Well, I'll have to tell you that I cannot offer you an opinion about that because I've read Obama's speech and I've seen clips of it, but I, as a general rule, didn't watch the Democratic National Convention. There are things I just don't have the stomach for.
MANCOW: Did you see the scene where John Kerry's daughter talked about how John Kerry gave her hamster mouth-to-mouth, pulled it out of a lake, and they flashed to Ted Kennedy?
KEYES: No, no, no. Did not.
MANCOW: I mean, that was pretty funny, too. OK. Alan, you're a good talker. We have you for limited time. I want to ask you some basic questions. Can you give me short answers?
KEYES: I don't know. We'll see.
MANCOW: Oh, no. This is not gonna work the way I want it to.
[Stacy: "I have a question, too."]
MANCOW: I think our school systems are awful. I think the whole system has to be redone. Education. What are you going to do?
KEYES: Education ought to be based upon empowering parents to that they can send their children . . .
MANCOW: School choice? School Choice?
KEYES: Let me finish . . . send their children to schools that reflect their faith and values
[studio member: "Wow."]
MANCOW: So, you're for school choice?
KEYES: Absolutely. That's what that just said. The reason that was longer is because I don't deal in slogans. No. School choice is a label. I deal in ideas, and I must express the ideas. I won't talk in labels. It's not who I am.
[studio member: "Wow."]
STACY: How do you feel about abortion?
KEYES: It's sin, and I'm against it. It violates the most fundamental principles of our way of life. We are created equal. And that means that your life's worth is not determined by your mother's choice or any human choice, it was determined by the choice of the Creator, God. That's what America's principle says, and abortion simply violates that principle and is deeply wrong.
MANCOW: What about unions?
KEYES: I think that unions were important steps forward for workers, and I think that there is no way we would have seen the advances in this country in the quality of life for our working people if they hadn't organized their strength in order to make sure that they weren't being atomized and taken apart.
On the other hand, I also believe that employers need to be free in that bargaining process to exert their leverage. Both sides should be able to organize their strengths and come to a conclusion at the bargaining table.
MANCOW: Alan, I was at one of the big conventions, and I met you briefly and I met a lot of these guys when you were running for president, and the attitude from the candidates was, "This is a coronation. Bush has it." Everybody in the beginning thought Bush had it, that that was part of a script.
Was I wrong? Were they wrong? Was that the feeling you had? Did you think you had a chance when you ran against Bush for president?
KEYES: Well, actually, no. I explained to people at the time, and I said it continually during both my presidential campaigns that my objective was to run a message and to make sure that that message was clear and that it was there as a standard by which the candidates could be judged, so that people who believe as I do would have a voice.
MANCOW: Live, I saw you speak two times, and there were, you know, all these people running for president, and everybody would go nuts. You got the biggest applause, the biggest reaction, everybody agreed with what you said, and I went, "Well, this is the guy! This is the guy that believes what I believe," and everybody went, "Well, yeah, he doesn't have a chance."
I never understood that.
KEYES: I never have, either.
MANCOW: "That's the guy we want! But you know what, Bush has a better shot of winning!"
KEYES: It's one of the things
MANCOW: Is it a black thing?
KEYES: No. To everybody out there who believes as I do, if you do that, then the things you believe in will never win. You are being manipulated into believing that there's a winner before the election takes place.
MANCOW: Sure.
KEYES: The election determines the winner, so how do you know the winner before election day? It is so manipulative, it is so deceptive.
MANCOW: By who, the media? Or by who?
KEYES: It's everyone
MANCOW: Right. Well, the pollsters always claim they know everything.
Who's going to be president in a year from now?
KEYES: G. W. Bush will pull it off, I think.
MANCOW: OK. We had Ditka on yesterday talking about you. Do you want to hear it? Do you want to hear what Mike Ditka had to say about you?
KEYES: Sure. Sure, sure, sure. Why not?
CLIP OF MIKE DITKA: "First of all, I'm not a saint, but I don't want anybody dragging my past through the mud. And I've got a family, I got a wife who I love very much. So, I mean, it's regardless. People are people.MANCOW: What do you think about his comments?
"But I know, if you want to talk issues, I know issues. I know what the people want, I know what the people demand. And actually, what I see in politics that I don't like, because I see a lot of people going to Washington who don't represent the people who elect them. And that bothers me a lot.
"And I don't care if you're a conservative Republican or you're a liberal Democrat, because that's you're business. I'm not going to argue with that. But I don't think- -I think that partisanship really, to me, it's disgusting. And the name calling that's going on, and in politics right now in this presidential race and some of the senatorial races is crazy.
"Now, let me tell you this. If people listen to Alan Keyes then he'll win. He's a solid man, believe me. This guy's not only intelligent, but he's solid, and if people of his own race listen to him, they'll understand that this guy, he's what it's all about. He's a good American. Let's forget all the other crap. I don't like that [we] have the Afro-American or Hispanic American or Irish American. Hey, he's an American, and I think that's what counts most."
KEYES: I'm fired up. Let's go!
[laughter]
KEYES: That's a good locker room speech. I'll take it, coach! You know, let's go onto the field!
[Stacy: "Yeah, it was. It was."]
MANCOW: Alan, Alan. You've been a good friend of this show, Alan, I gotta tell you. Just for the sake of material
But ah, there's a lot of glow around this Obama. A lot of glow around him. You know.
KEYES: You know what, I think that people ought to remember. Remember that scene from the Wizard of Oz . . .
MANCOW: But nobody was running against him.
KEYES: Remember that scene from the Wizard of Oz where the big head, the glowing head, talks?
[Stacy: "Yeah"]
KEYES: And so forth and so on.
MANCOW: Yes. The mighty Oz.
KEYES: And there's the mighty Oz with this big head, he's floating around. There was a glow around him, too.
MANCOW: Right.
KEYES: But when you went behind, there was just this little bitty guy, you know.
[Stacy: "It's true."]
MANCOW: So, you're saying, behind the big curtain, we're going to see a little commie?
KEYES: I'm not saying it. I want people to look at the events of the last couple of days. He talked like he was Abraham Lincoln or Stephen Douglas when he was facing Jack Ryan. Six debates, Lincoln-Douglas. He talked like he was Muhammad Ali when this seat was empty and the Republican Party was confused: "I'll take on all comers. I'll debate whoever the Republicans put up." No talk of backing away then.
I step into the race, I hadn't been in the ring 24 hours, he holds a press conference and starts jumping toward the exists. Out of the ring he goes.
MANCOW: He will not debate you. He will not debate you?
KEYES: No. No, he's gone from . . .
MANCOW: That's a disgrace!
KEYES: . . . six debates. Wait. No, he knows better than that. He's gone from six debates to two all of a sudden.
[Stacy: "Right."]
MANCOW: So, there will be a debate.
KEYES: He is backpedaling and backing away as fast he can. You know?
MANCOW: There will be some debates. That'll be good. That'll be exciting.
KEYES: Wait a minute, though. I don't know. We will see what happens, because the problem right now isn't about debates, y'all. This guy has stood up and said he's ready to go to the United States Senate. Then the other day, he says, "Oh, he's from out of state. This was an instate offer," and so forth, acting like because I've been asked to come from Maryland to serve the Illinois people, he has some excuse. I'd like to tell him right now. He goes into the U.S. Senate, he's going to find 98 of the most talented and capable people from other states. If he can't handle me, he can't handle them. He doesn't belong in the U.S. Senate.
MANCOW: Must . . . vote . . . Keyes.
[Stacy: "Now I'm hypnotized!"]
MANCOW: You've convinced me. Alan, thanks for coming by.
KEYES: Now, wait a minute. I want to set a standard for myself.
MANCOW: Yes.
KEYES: Stacy, was it?
STACY: Yes, it's Stacy.
KEYES: He said that you're not going to vote for me.
STACY: Well, let me tell you what . . .
KEYES: Now, wait, wait. Let me finish. I am willing to let Stacy be a standard for me. I want you to watch this campaign. Don't say anything. Watch. Promise me you'll listen.
STACY: I will.
KEYES: And I want to come back to this show and find out what difference it makes.
I believe I can win you over, and I'll set it as a challenge for myself.
STACY: And I accept.
MANCOW: And we're going to play paintball together with Captain Kirk.
[studio member: "I want to make buttons for this guy! I'm telling you. I want to put up a poster somewhere!"]
MANCOW: Onward, Christian soldiers. All right.