April 2, 2004

KERBY ANDERSON, HOST: We have an opportunity to hear from Alan Keyes. If you'd like to join us, 1-800-351-1212. Penna Dexter, it's always a delight to bring Ambassador Keyes back to the microphone.

PENNA DEXTER, CO-HOST: With us now is Ambassador Alan Keyes, and of course he heads up the organization Renew America, he's a former presidential candidate, radio and television host. Ambassador Keyes, thank you so much for being with us.

ALAN KEYES: Glad to be with you. Thank you.

DEXTER: Now, you and Chief Justice Roy Moore are sort of taking the show on the road, aren't you?

KEYES: Yes, we are. We've actually been doing rallies around the country in support of a restoration of the First Amendment rights of people in this country, and we will be doing a major rally in Dallas tomorrow from 10 to 2, at the Convention Center in Dallas, Texas.

DEXTER: I have been hearing about this rally here in Dallas, and of course we're a national show, and these rallies will be taking place across the nation. I know that you want to culminate in something in Washington, DC. What are you hoping to accomplish with these?

KEYES: Well, we have a very clear and specific objective. First, to educate people about what has been happening for the last 50-60 years in the federal courts, where these judges have been making decisions about the relationship between church and state--a subject that was explicitly forbidden to federal authority by the Constitution. The First Amendment withheld that power from the federal government, the Tenth Amendment left it in the hands of the state, and so when the federal courts tell a state chief justice that he can't display the Ten Commandments, they are doing something that is beyond the boundaries of their constitutional authority.

Congress has the constitutional power to limit the authority of the federal judges--that is to say, to set those boundaries so that they have to stay where the Constitution placed them, and we would like to see that happen. We want the Congress of the United States to pass a piece of legislation, it would be done by majority vote, that essentially removes from the jurisdiction of the federal courts these matters of church/state relations that are, by the First Amendment of the Constitution, left to the authority of the state and local governments.

DEXTER: Of course, Chief Justice Moore causing sort of a firestorm, becoming a national icon in some people's minds because of his disobedience to a court order there in Alabama--of course, he's lost his job, but now you and he are behind an actual act that would allow or really reassert congressional authority in some of these situations, with regard to expressing our faith.

KEYES: Well, it actually is an effort to use the authority Congress has to reestablish the authority of the state and local governments.

DEXTER: So, in a sense you have to do that because Congress hasn't been.

KEYES: Well, Congress hasn't been acting to rebuke the federal courts as they have overstepped the boundaries of the Constitution, and that's what they need to do. Congress isn't doing something to assert its own power, it is rather being asked to take a step that will defend the sovereign power of the state governments and the people of the states--which the First Amendment to the Constitution clearly protects, and which the federal judges have been violating.

And I always like to say to people, by the way, that Chief Justice Moore didn't disobey a federal court order, he refused it--the same way that in the military we have private soldiers even who, if they are given an unlawful order, not only have the right but the obligation to refuse that unlawful order.

The federal judges who are issuing who are issuing orders on this subject matter are issuing unlawful orders--that is, orders which have no basis in the law or the Constitution of the United States. Chief Justice Moore simply stood on his right as a state official elected by the people of his state to do exactly what he did in terms of acknowledging God, and they removed him from office for insisting on his right to acknowledge God as a citizen and as a public official.

DEXTER: Ambassador Keyes, how have we gotten to this point? Do you point the finger of blame on the courts or the people?

KEYES: Well, obviously, the courts have been manipulated by a minority that is trying to drive God out of every aspect of our public and political life, at every level, to impose a uniform national regime of atheism throughout this country.

Now, that's unconstitutional, it's a violation of the most basic rights of our people--but when your rights are violated, that violation is going to grow, as it has over the last several decades, only if you sit on your hands and do nothing.

So, ultimately, those who are to blame for this destruction of our most fundamental liberty, the one the Founders protected first in the Bill of Rights, the ones to blame are the people of the United States, people within the sound of my voice who haven't decided yet that they are going to this rally, that they will organize rallies in their own community, that they will stand up and take a stand to assert what is one of the most fundamental rights of nature, the right to acknowledge God, and to do so, by the way, not just as individuals in our private conscience, but as citizens in our public life.

And if we're going to surrender this right--which is, in some ways, the most fundamental of all, because without God, there's no liberty, there's no justice, there's no hope--then it seems to me, we have ourselves to blame for doing nothing.

DEXTER: Give us call, 1-800-351-1212, if you've got a question for Dr. Alan Keyes. I want to give out a couple of websites in case people are interested in these rallies. First of all, there's one going on in Texas at the Dallas Convention Center tomorrow, April 3rd, and you can go to TexasRally@msn.com, that's TexasRally@msn.com, and to find out about rallies across the U.S., go to USRallies@msn.com.

KEYES: I think that--if I my make a little correction, I think that the MSN.com things are the e-mail addresses.

ANDERSON: Yes, they are. The websites should be www.TexasRally.us, or USRallies.us.

DEXTER: Right. Sorry about that.

ANDERSON: So, again, TexasRally.us or USRallies.us.

DEXTER: And USRallies.us.

ANDERSON: Right.

KEYES: Yep.

ANDERSON: Good. If you'd like to join us, 1-800-351-1212. Dr. Keyes, I've got to at least ask you this question, and that is, did you not notice the tremendous hypocrisy in this nation between the way Judge Roy Moore was treated for his, quote, "disobedience," I disagree with that, but nevertheless, and then the action of the San Francisco mayor obviously disobeying laws by issuing bogus marriage licenses?

KEYES: Obviously. I think that the action was atrocious in terms of the explicit violation of law that's clear on the book, in terms of what these mayors have been doing, and the fact that Chief Justice Moore was violating no law. I often tell people who say he's a lawbreaker, "Where's the law?"

ANDERSON: What law? Yeah.

KEYES: There is no such law because the Congress can't pass one, and the only thing people can say is, "Well, the judge said. . . . " Well, what judges say in this country is not law unless there is a basis for it in law or the Constitution--and when there is none, their opinions are worth no more than anybody else's.

ANDERSON: Interesting. We've talked just a minute ago about what's making its way through Congress using Article 3, Section 2, the idea of limiting appellate jurisdiction. As a student of history, it seems to me that the Framers intended for Congress to push back against the judiciary, and Congress seems to be refusing to do so.

KEYES: I think that was exactly the intention. If you go back and look at the founding period, one of the great concerns over the Constitution was that the federal court would take over from the state courts and destroy their prerogatives, and basically make the states into vassals of a national authority which they would be unable to resist.

That particular power given to Congress was to make sure that if the federal courts start encroaching upon areas that were reserved to the states and the state governments, the representatives of the people from the states and from the districts of the states in the Congress would be able to react to stop them.

And right now, we have a Congress that is also in a position of deep irresponsibility because they have allowed this destruction of a fundamental right of the people, and they have done nothing about it.

ANDERSON: One of the things that we talked about just before you came on the air, again, is just a good illustration of media bias. For the last couple weeks, we've heard people express their concern that Justice Antonin Scalia might not be objective, because, after all, he went on a duck-hunting trip with Dick Cheney. On the other hand, you've got the Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg distinguished lecture series on women in the law, and nobody seems to be very concerned about her ruling on issues like abortion.

KEYES: That's amazing, isn't it? I mean, here Ruth Bader Ginsburg has a long identification and association with NOW (National Organization for Women), which is one of the premiere pro-abortion lobbies in this countries that has been extremist in its stands on everything that has to do with abortion--including, of course, opposing the partial-birth abortion ban--and yet, her long-standing association with this explicit lobby group for which her name is being used, and that's not grounds for recusing, but a personal, private friendship is supposed to be grounds.

This is absolutely not only a double standard, I think it's an insane instance of the kind of bias that exists in the media, in an effort to hamstring conservatives, when they will give latitude to these Leftist judges to whatever abuses they desire to commit.

ANDERSON: Let's go to some phone calls here in Texas. Harry, you're on with Ambassador Alan Keyes.

HARRY: How're you doing, Mr. Alan Keyes?

KEYES: Hi.

HARRY: I thank you guys for taking my call. I'm a truck driver, and Mr. Alan Keyes, I've always respected and admired you as a politician and as a person of God, and always held your beliefs, and always, you know, pulled for you when you were trying to run for president. And the reasons why I don't know why you never got as far as you did. But it's got to be--I don't understand it. But anyway, getting to the--this is a beautiful show. Every time I come through Texas, I get you guys. You guys are doing a great job, and you're very honest with everything.

ANDERSON: Thank you.

HARRY: Mr. Keyes, what I want to ask you is, this rally, I'm a truck driver, and, boy, I'm just itching to be there tomorrow, but I'm headed toward California, and I can't--and there's a lot of other truck drivers out here that want to, you know, that believe in you and that believe in what you're doing, because we believe in God, and we know He has a place in all our lives and in this United States. But, if this doesn't work, this rally--because you always put a big effort to everything you do . . .

ANDERSON: Harry, can we put you on hold? Unfortunately, I've got to go to a mandatory break, and the break waits for no one, including the Ambassador. We'll take a break and come back with more right after this.

[break]

ANDERSON: Harry, we need to get to your point really quickly, because we have to move on.

HARRY: OK. Mr. Keyes, what I was asking was, the rally--I know what it's for and everything, but do you and your colleagues have a back-up in case this doesn't work? And when are you all going to rally in Alabama any time soon? I'll get off the phone and let you answer. Thank you.

KEYES: Well, I'm actually not sure when we're planning--as you know, we had a number of rallies in Alabama. We had what essentially amounted to a two-week long rally in Montgomery over the course of the summer.

ANDERSON: That's right.

DEXTER: That was the beginning.

KEYES: And that was the beginning of the whole effort. We are in the planning stages with major rallies, I know, in Utah, we're talking with folks in Missouri, we've got folks who are working at developing these things--a couple of them, probably, in California, and others that are on line and will be moving along. We're hoping to work up one in Virginia, I know we were just talking about it yesterday, and so forth.

So, I think there are going to be a number of opportunities, but the major one which all these would be focused on and which would include folks like the caller who might want to get involved is to set aside October 15th of this fall--October 15th--and that's the day we're aiming at for a national rally in Washington, DC, into which these other rallies will be feeding, as we get the word out, spread enthusiasm, build up support, and then focus people on getting people in their churches, in their neighborhoods, in their workplace, and everyone they have contact with to set aside that date and come to Washington, in the hopes that we, as believers, will be able to give a massive demonstration of our belief that as citizens, we have the right to acknowledge God.

DEXTER: I've been told by people here in Dallas that there's still plenty of room at the Texas rally, and that website is TexasRally.us--and then, I guess, Dr. Keyes, to keep up with it and with the plans for rallies in the future, then people can just go to the USRallies.us website and, you know, see what the plans are, because I'm sure you're adding cities as time goes by, aren't you?

KEYES: We are adding cities as time goes by--it's also possible through those websites, if folks who are listening now are thinking to themselves, "Gosh, it would be great to have one of those here," I think they need to go to the website, send their expression of interest to the contact address there, and folks will get back in touch with them. We have rallies large and small. The one in Dallas is a relatively large one, we have had ones that are a few hundred people, ranging up to several thousand, and so if you think that this is something that would be possible in your local area, with your church taking the lead, or whoever, I would encourage people to get in touch.

And all those who are within the area of Dallas right now, within reach of Dallas in that region, if they're able to get out tomorrow, it starts at 10:00, they're welcome to come. There's going to be plenty of room. We sold several thousand, or placed several thousand tickets, but there's going to be lots of room for people if they just show up and participate, so I hope everybody will feel motivated, because I think we got into this situation because we didn't respond when they took prayer out of the schools and the Bible out of the schools, and made all these decisions that were contrary to our basic rights and contrary to the Constitution, and we just kind of sat back and let it happened.

And now, they are so emboldened by their success that they're going to drive God out of everything, they're going to scour His name off the walls of our public buildings, and so forth, so that our children would grow up in a country where they had completely forgotten the Godly heritage of their freedom.

DEXTER: You know, this comes off of the media material publicizing the rally in Texas, talking about that there needs to be a national commitment by Christian and Jewish believers to resist and reject the "atheizing of America." I love that, Dr. Keyes.

KEYES: Well, I think that we are at that time. And there was a time, I can remember when I was growing up, and you had different organizations that would talk about how the federal judges were trying to impose atheism on America, and they were called extremists, and we were told, "Oh, they're just making things up. That will never happen." Look at where it is now, to the point where our children have to feel ashamed if they go to school wearing a Jesus t-shirt, but where someone with some filthy curse word on the t-shirt could strut up and down the halls like there's nothing the matter.

DEXTER: Um, hm.

ANDERSON: Amazing.

KEYES: We have gotten to a point now where they have made God and Christ obscene, and they're putting all the obscene stuff right out in the public eye--and it's our own fault because we sit on our hands thinking somebody else is going to do something about this, and it's not going to happen.

"Government of the people, by the people, for the people" means that if the people don't take action when their rights are violated, then those violations are going to continue.

ANDERSON: By the way, if you want to go to Alan Keyes' website Declaration.net, a matter of fact, its lead article there is "Alan Keyes to appear Friday on Point of View." So, you can find his website, as well.

Let's go back to the phones and talk to John in Nebraska, state of Nebraska. John, thank you for calling.

JOHN: Hey, how're you doing?

ANDERSON: Very good.

JOHN: I definitely agree with all you were saying about Roy Moore, I kind of was going to talk about that. Also, I just want to ask Alan what he thinks we can do about spreading the Gospel to places like Africa that maybe don't have access to the media, that really don't know about Jesus.

KEYES: Well, I would think. . . .

JOHN: Maybe it's not the AIDS and stuff like that, I think that would help.

KEYES: I think that there is great missionary work that has been done in Africa, is being done today--but one of the impressions I get, in many respects, to be quite frank with you, is that right now there is a fervent, Evangelical Christianity that has taken root in different parts in Africa, and that is spreading and influencing what is going on in many places--some of which are beset by all kinds of evils, like Uganda, and places like this that have been in the grip of terrible things in the past, and where the influence of Christianity is helping to reform life and to improve conditions there in politics and everything else.

And I think that what we are failing to realize in America is, do you know what much of the rest of the world in the Christian world now think? They think America is the mission field. They think we are the people who are lost to God--and I'm not sure they're wrong.

ANDERSON: I know, I've heard some of that, too.

JOHN: All right, thanks a lot.

ANDERSON: Well, I appreciate John, your phone call. Dr. Keyes, we've got to let you go in just a minute. I know we are just about ready to end the program, but I thought I'd give you a final comment. Again, we're encouraging people that are at least in the Texas area to attend what is going to be a very exciting rally tomorrow from 10:00 to 2:00 p.m. at the Dallas Convention Center, and they'll get a chance to hear you and Judge Roy Moore and others.

Any other comments about what you see in the future in terms of some of these rallies and the work that you're doing through the Declaration Foundation?

KEYES: Well, I hope folks will get to the rally sites on the web, if they can, will get in touch with folks if they think they can put rallies together, will carry this word to people that they know about what is happening, because it's a critical issue.

I think it's connected to all the other issues we're dealing with, including, of course, marriage--because the idea of marriage we're defending is the Judeo-Christian idea of marriage, and if our religious heritage is pushed out of our laws and public life, I don't think we're going to be able to sustain those institutions that rely upon that heritage for the conviction that sustains them.

And so, all of these issues are related, and I deeply hope that people will pray over it and will get involved with this effort to keep America in a place where, as citizens and public officials, we can acknowledge God, reflect His sovereignty and His laws in our understanding of the laws and of justice, rather than be moved into this atheist wasteland that the federal judges are trying to push us into.

ANDERSON: Ambassador Keyes, we appreciate you, we salute you, and God bless the work that you're doing.

KEYES: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

ANDERSON: Alan Keyes, ambassador, and certainly a man that we've enjoyed. I remember one time we brought him to Action Lunch, and it was just wall-to-wall people, and he gets up there without a note and speaks so eloquently, it is just always a delight to hear from Alan Keyes.

DEXTER: No one says it better than Dr. Alan Keyes, and if you live in the Dallas Fort Worth area, and you want to hear more, you can go to the rally tomorrow at the Dallas Convention Center. And, let's see, what is that website again? It's TexasRally.us.

ANDERSON: TexasRally.us, and again, Natalie Grant and Justice Roy Moore, Alan Keyes, quite a number of other people, and I hope that you'll take the time to find out about that. Also, visit that website. Interesting week. Always good to finish off with Alan Keyes.