March 8, 2004

GREG KNAPP, HOST: Right now, we're joined by Alan Keyes. He was a Republican candidate for president in 1996 [and 2000], former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations Economic and Social Council, and he is a newly-elected president of the Ronald Reagan Alumni Association. Alan Keyes, going to be coming to town next month for a Ten Commandments Texas Rally. Alan, welcome to the Greg Knapp Show.

ALAN KEYES: I'm glad to be with you. Thank you.

KNAPP: I appreciate your time, sir. Hey, let's start off with the purpose of your rally here.

KEYES: Well, the purpose of the rally is to bring people together. There's been, I think, around the country a strong reaction against what the courts are now doing to try to take all references to our religious heritage and God out of every aspect of American public and political life, culminating in episodes like the one in Alabama, where they went after the Chief Justice for having the Ten Commandments in the Supreme Judicial Building.

There is a remedy. We can get Congress to limit the jurisdiction of the federal courts and get them out of the business of acting as moral and religious censors in this matter. And so, we're working with people around the country at the grassroots to organize rallies, disseminate the information, and to get people involved in the effort to get congressional action.

KNAPP: Now, let's talk about that for a second, Alan, because I know there are a lot of people--from the Ten Commandments in Alabama, to what the Massachusetts Supreme Court said about gay marriage, to what the Supreme Court said (a bunch of different rulings we could get to there)--and people always say, "Greg, what can you do?" And you mention limit the jurisdiction of the courts. How do we get Congress to do that?

KEYES: Well, it's actually very simple. By majority vote they can pass legislation, it has been introduced already in the House and Senate, that basically removes these issues from the jurisdiction of the federal courts, on the clear grounds that the federal government is, in fact, forbidden to deal with the questions of church and state and religious establishment by the First Amendment to the Constitution; that, by the First and Tenth Amendments, the power to address these issues that have to do with establishment of religion was reserved to the states and the people of the states.

Over the course of the last several decades, the federal courts have usurped a power that does not belong to them, and it's time for people to act against this abuse.

KNAPP: We're talking with Alan Keyes, Greg Knapp Show, 570 KLIF--and, Alan, I think you just hit upon something big there that we've talked about before, [that] is, the Supreme Court and other federal courts cite precedent of how the court has been getting into those topics over time, and so it seems like, "Oh, hey," you know, "this is what's been going on forever." But as you said, really about fifty years ago is where you really started to see this shift, so as each ruling comes down citing the precedent, you can get farther and farther away from what they're actually supposed to be doing, and they can base it all on previous rulings, correct?

KEYES: Well, that's what they try to do--that's exactly what they do. It's a little bit, as I often tell audiences, like somebody who's gotten away with embezzlement for twenty years, and then when you catch them they say, "No, it's not a crime anymore, because I've been getting away with it for so long."

The simple fact of the matter is that they didn't have the right to get involved in this area in the first place, and so we don't have a long train of precedents establishing some kind of legality, we have a long train abuses that evince a desire to take away a fundamental right of the people--and that, in fact, is an offense that assaults the Constitution and needs to be brought to an end.

KNAPP: We're talking to Alan Keyes. Greg Knapp Show, 570 KLIF.

OK, Alan, let's do this. Let's say that a state somewhere tried to institute--or, let's say Congress started to try and institute a national religion, which, of course, the First Amendment says you can't do. So, who would be the body you go to prevent that, if it's not the courts?

KEYES: Well, actually, the First Amendment doesn't just say that Congress can't institute a national religion. It says that Congress cannot make any legislation on the subject of religious establishment of any kind whatsoever.

KNAPP: Right. But I'm saying, if they do that, then what body do you go to to stop it?

KEYES: Wait, wait. People often read that as saying there's a prohibition on religious establishment. That is not true. There is a prohibition on congressional, national action on this subject--and, of course, if the Congress tries to do something like that, you'd go to the court to stop them, because that's a violation of the Constitution.

But that's a different question than when the courts try to interfere with what state and local officials are doing . . .

KNAPP: Got ya.

KEYES: When, in fact, the intention of the First Amendment was to make sure that the national government, including the federal judiciary, did not get involved in this question, that it would be left, in other words, to the states under our federal system.

So, under the one rubric, if Congress is acting, the courts have a legitimate interest in applying to Congress a prohibition that was explicitly directed at Congress. On the other hand, if they try to get involved with the business of the states, they, themselves, are in violation of that provision of the Constitution which reserves the powers not delegated to the national government to the state governments and the people.

KNAPP: Alan Keyes on the Greg Knapp Show, 570 KLIF. He's coming to Texas next month for a Ten Commandments Texas Rally. April the 3rd, Saturday, is when he's going to be here. Alan, if you'll hold with me, I want to ask just a couple more quick questions, and we'll let everybody know what they can do to get involved. All right?

KEYES: OK.

KNAPP: All right. We'll talk more with Alan Keyes on the Greg Knapp Show next.

[break]

KNAPP: We're joined by Alan Keyes. He will be in Dallas, Saturday, April the 3rd, for the Ten Commandments Texas Rally. You can join in on that, as well. And we're speaking with him right now.

Now, Alan, what you said just before the break, you want to go back to the time when the Supreme Court of the land said that the Supreme Court was only going to get involved when the U.S. Congress did something, not when state legislatures did something. Do you think you have a chance of getting that through in the House and the Senate?

KEYES: Well, the bills have been introduced, and, yes, I do, but I don't think it's going to happen until and unless we have, one, educated the people as to what in fact is the constitutional reality, and then gotten them to put pressure on their representatives in Congress to take action.

Because, at the end of the day, the question of the jurisdiction of the courts in this matter is not up to the Supreme Court, it's up to the Congress.

KNAPP: Right.

KEYES: The power to set the jurisdiction of the court is there in Article 3, Section 2, which gives the supreme appellate jurisdiction "subject to such exceptions and under such regulations as the Congress shall make." And, given the abuse that we've been subjected to in the effort by the judges arbitrarily to impose an atheist system on the whole country--that is, in fact, a kind of an establishment of religion, and it's strictly forbidden at the national level for them to take such action.

KNAPP: Yeah, there's no doubt we've seen a shift in the balance of powers towards the bench, and I think a lot of Americans are getting very frustrated with that.

Alan, I want to ask you specifically about Judge Roy Moore and the Ten Commandments in Alabama at the capitol rotunda--and I agree with you that I thought Justice Roy Moore had the right to have that in the rotunda, the big monument to the Ten Commandments. However, once it went to the courts and the federal courts said no, and the Supreme Court decided not to take the case, if I remember correctly, shouldn't he have then started to do what you're doing now, instead of just saying "I'm going to defy the court"? I mean, because otherwise, as conservatives, wouldn't we be mad if a liberal judge ignored a conservative court ruling?

KEYES: Well, but, that's not the question. The question isn't whether or not he is ignoring a court ruling, but whether or not that ruling is lawful. We're under no obligation to obey unlawful orders of any court whatsoever, because our courts do not operate on the basis of the personal power, whims, position, or anything else of judges. Judges must have a lawful basis for what they're doing, in the law or in the Constitution.

It's not . . .

KNAPP: I understand that, but let's take . . . let's . . .

KEYES: But let me . . . .no . . .

KNAPP: Hold on, Alan. Wait a second, Alan--because let's take, let's say, Mayor Newsom in California.

KEYES: Um, hmm.

KNAPP: He believes that he's reading the law correctly with the "full faith and credit clause" of the California constitution, not the U.S. one. Now, if a court tells him he can't do it, and he continues to do it, would you be defending him?

KEYES: Of course not, because there was no law violated in this case [in Alabama] of any kind whatsoever, and there is a law being violated in the California case. It's a California statute, and it is, in fact, up to the courts and the executive in California to carry them out. But in the case of Judge Thompson and all of the other judges who are addressing this issue of establishment, there is no basis in law or constitution for what they're doing. So, if we say that they can just make it up as they go, and assert that they can get involved in these things and make any judgments they want, then we don't have a constitutional system anymore. We have an oligarchy of judges whose . . .

KNAPP: We have . . . And I agree, and I've been fighting that, and I, I . . .

KEYES: . . . apparently comes from their own whim.

KNAPP: Alan, I agree with you, and I've been fighting that and saying the same things you are saying. However, if individuals just start saying--by the way, who swore to uphold the law and what the courts say--just start doing it on their own . . .

KEYES: If you're sworn to uphold the law--and in the case of the Chief Justice of Alabama, that includes, by the way, the Alabama constitution and the Constitution of the United States, and both of them, both of them, require and authorize that you should be able to show proper reverence toward God. Both of them--one, by leaving that to the states, and the other by explicit mention, and finally by the mandate of the people. And a federal judge comes along and issues an unlawful order. Do you realize even privates in the Army have the right to disobey, not even disobey, refuse unlawful orders. They have, a matter of fact, a moral obligation to do so.

KNAPP: I understand that.

KEYES: And this is an unlawful order that violates our most fundamental rights--the first one, in fact, that was protected in the Constitution of the United States.

KNAPP: I understand that, Alan. All I'm saying is that there are other people who are going to interpret the Constitution and the laws the way they want to, and have just as much power and conviction as you do, and then you're going to get . . .

KEYES: This is not a matter of interpretation.

KNAPP: I know that, but they're going to say the same thing, Alan.

KEYES: No, they're not. This is not a matter of interpretation.

KNAPP: They already are!

KEYES: If judges . . . .

KNAPP: They already are saying this.

KEYES: Wait. If judges can simply make up out of whole cloth things that simply do not exist in constitution or statute, then it's no longer a constitutional system . . . .

KNAPP: I understand.

KEYES: And if it's no longer a constitutional system, by the way, then we're not obliged to obey them, because they have put us in a revolutionary . . .

KNAPP: What I don't understand how you can't acknowledge is the fact that the other side is saying exactly what you're saying when they . . .

KEYES: They're not.

KNAPP: Yes, sure they are! There are . . .

KEYES: No, they're not.

KNAPP: Well, I'm sorry, but there are people who are saying that certain . . .

KEYES: You go back and read . . .

KNAPP: . . . that certain rulings . . .

KEYES: Have you read the Supreme Court decisions?

KNAPP: Yes, I have. Yes, I have. And I'm not even talking about the Ten Commandments. I'm talking about their . . .

KEYES: I'm not either. If you go, if you go back . . .

KNAPP: Alan, will you please hold on a second and let me make my point, and then you can refute it?

KEYES: Uh, huh.

KNAPP: OK. What I'm saying is that there are liberal causes where they will say, "What a second, the conservative bench on the Supreme Court is making this up. They are reading in a way it was never meant to be said, and if we can just get our guys on the bench, they'll read the Constitution the way it was meant to be said, and we don't have to abide by this because they're wrong."

KEYES: That's not the case here. OK? If you go back and look at Everson [vs. Board of Education, 1947], the first decision, they didn't even attempt to make an argument as to what the Constitution said, they didn't even have any regard for it whatsoever. Go back and look . . .

KNAPP: I'm agreeing with you. Alan, I'm agreeing with you on that.

KEYES: The words of the Constitution . . .

KNAPP: Sir, I agree with you on that.

KEYES: Let me finish. The words of the Constitution are clear here--and Judge Roy Moore had an obligation, by the way, under the Constitution, not to permit any infringement of the rights and privileges of the citizens and people of his state. And so, he was, in fact, acting in accordance with his lawful obligation, and the federal judge came in and said that he should violate that lawful obligation, and he said no.

KNAPP: Well, I appreciate your passion, I appreciate you telling everybody what your beliefs are, and thanks for being on the program. You're going to be here Saturday, April the 3rd, 2004, 10 a.m. to 2 p.m., and it's the Ten Commandments Texas Rally. Alan, where should they go if they want to be a part of this?

KEYES: Well, they can visit the website at RenewAmerica.us, or VisionAmerica.org, and they can get all the information about the rally. There's also TexasRally.us.

KNAPP: Great.

KEYES: And those websites will give them all the information they need.

KNAPP: I will put a link up on my webpage for it, sir. Alan Keyes, thanks for being with me.

KEYES. You're welcome. Thank you for having me.