January 21, 2004

BILL OREILLY: Four years ago at this time, Ambassador Alan Keyes was making a bid for the White House, so he knows all about the competition. He joins us now from Washington, D.C.

Anybody impressed you on the campaign trail thus far, Ambassador?

ALAN KEYES: Well, to be honest, Bill, no. But I also have to be honest in saying I haven't paid that much attention to the Democrats. I know that, to a man, they all stand for things that I believe are deeply harmful to this country--abortion, the promotion of homosexual unions and marriage, socialism. I don't agree with any of them, and none of them have the guts to challenge what has become the kind of left-wing orthodoxy of the Democrat party. So, no.

O'REILLY: But really, you have a divide, though. I mean, we just talked to Senator Lieberman. I mean, he certainly is like a moderate Democrat, maybe even a conservative one--and John Edwards is certainly not a raving left-wing guy. So, there's nothing about these guys that could ever impress you? Does that leave one to think that you don't have an open mind?

KEYES: I don't have an open mind. No. The only thing I need to know about a candidate--and this is regardless of the label they wear--is where they stand on the issue of abortion. That's the first question I ask when people ask me to come support them, do fund-raisers, do anything else. And this, by the way, is including people in the Republican party. I'm a Republican, but I won't support anybody in the Republican party who stands for the disregard for innocent life. I think that's a more important issue today than it ever was.

O'REILLY: Ok. I got it, and I just want to tell the audience we have the actress Jennifer O'Neill, coming up right behind the ambassador, who's going to talk on this question, and I think everybody would be interested to hear what she has to say.

All right, now, besides terrorism/Iraq, which is obviously the main issue in the campaign--and I don't think abortion is going to be the main issue in the campaign at all. The president didn't even mention it last night in the State of the Union. What do you think is going to be the big issue, besides the terrorism/Iraq?

KEYES: Well, I'm not sure. If the president understood the issue of terrorism, then he would have mentioned the issue of abortion last night. What distinguishes . . .

O'REILLY: He's not going deal with the issue, Ambassador. Naw.

KEYES: But what distinguishes terrorism from normal warfare is disregard for the claims of innocent human life. That's what a terrorist is: somebody who fights their war without respect for innocent life.

O'REILLY: All right. For whatever reason, though, it's not going to be the main issue. Other than that, do you see another issue that Americans will be engaged in?

KEYES: Oh, yeah, I see a lot of issues, but I think that the main one that he has to confront is the fact--we are engaged in a war right now with terrorists. The aim of terrorism is to destroy the American spirit. That's what they aim to do. They take lives, they take buildings, and so forth, to get at our spirit.

And I think that the defense of that spirit is both the thing that I think has been most impressive over the last several years--the resilience of the American people, coming back economically, fighting our enemies--but I think that you therefore have to understand: if we lose our way on the basic issues of moral concern, how are we going to sustain our moral commitment in this very difficult war?

O'REILLY: All right. How do you . . . I think gay marriage is going to be a big issue, as I said at the top of the program, and the president positioning himself as the champion of the traditional man-woman marriage, definition of marriage. How do you answer people who say to you, "Listen. I'm an American citizen, I'm a homosexual. I have the right to get married if I don't hurt anybody. That's not going to impact negatively on society," how do you answer that?

KEYES: Well, I think the notion that getting married involves some kind of selfish individual right is partly the problem here. Marriage, as an institution, isn't about individual rights. As an institution, it is about safeguarding certain basic interests that the society has in the stability of the family as an institution, in the proper care of children in enforcing the mutual obligations of parenting between a husband and wife and toward the children. These are the reasons marriages are instituted by society, not that they are meant to cater to individual rights.

O'REILLY: Look, you know honest and good gay Americans, I'm sure. Don't you?

KEYES: But this is irrelevant. Why anybody . . .

O'REILLY: No, whoa, whoa, whoa. But here . . .

KEYES: Bill, why would anybody want the state . . .

O'REILLY: You have to stair-step it. Wait a minute. You have to stair-step it and look at their point of view.

KEYES: No, we don't. No, we don't.

O'REILLY: Yeah, you do. To be fair, you do.

KEYES: What I don't understand--lots of friendships exist between private individuals in this country. They're not all getting into the streets to clamor for government regulation of their friendships and of their intimate relationships.

O'REILLY: That's absolutely true.

KEYES: I think it's entirely inappropriate for people to be clamoring for the extension of government interference and control into the area of human friendships. The only reason it's justified in the case of marriage is because of the social and moral importance, the fundamental, central importance to society of the institution on which the family, itself, is based, and which requires the obligation to respect it.

O'REILLY: OK. I agree with you, but what I'm going to say is that the other side says, "I'm a good person, I'm a good American, I'm a loyal person. I want to be recognize the same way that a heterosexual is," and when you appeal to that kind of an emotional argument--and, by the way, I want to reiterate that I agree with you. The stabilizing force of marriage is the cornerstone on which civilization is based. But when you hear somebody say, "I can raise a child. I'm responsible. I shouldn't have to be a second-class citizen," you say to them . . . ?

KEYES: "You're not a second-class citizen. You have the same rights as anybody else who is not a male or female engaged in the business of procreation." But marriage wasn't instituted in order to cater to individual and selfish needs. It was actually instituted in order to make sure that the obligations that we have as parents and as people who are responsible for the institution that is fundamental to the society would be met and would be enforced and respected by the society.

O'REILLY: All right, Mr. Ambassador, always a pleasure to see you. Thanks for coming on.