MSNBC show
Alan Keyes is Making Sense
Alan KeyesMay 7, 2002
(SHARON PRESS CONFERENCE JOINED IN PROGRESS)
ARIEL SHARON, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: Israel will not surrender to blackmail. Israel will not surrender to blackmail. He who rises up to kill us, we will preempt it and kill him first.
As we have proven, there is no and there never will be any shelter for terrorists, their abettors, or dispatchers, and all those who are engaged in terrorism. There is no and there never will be any shelter for evil.
Israel will act the same as any democracy that protects itself. Israel will act like any other democracy, which fights the forces of darkness. Israel will continue to uproot the terror infrastructure.
Operation Defensive Shield was vital and important in the dismantling of the terror infrastructure. The operation has yielded tremendous achievements, but our work is not done. The battle continues and will continue until all those who believe that they can make gains through the use of terror will cease to exist, will cease to exist. Israel will act strongly.
I depart now to Israel with a heavy heart, heavy with grief and heavy with rage, the rage of every man and woman in Israel, the rage of each and every Jew in the world, the rage of all those who share our values, freedom, liberty, and democracy.
Israel will fight for these values. Israel will fight anyone who tries to threaten these values. Israel will fight anyone who tries through suicide terrorism to sow fear. Israel will fight. Israel will triumph. And when victory prevails, Israel will make peace.
Thank you.
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Ariel Sharon was supposed to have accepted questions from the press. But we're waiting to see how they're going to facilitate this. Let's listen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We'll have some questions for the Israeli press first and then we'll move to the American press. Shimon Achsa (ph)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (SPEAKING IN HEBREW)
BANFIELD: They're going to take questions in Hebrew from the Israeli press first. And as they do that, let's just recap what Ariel Sharon just said, obviously starting off by suggesting all meetings are canceled as he prepares to head back to Israel, giving his condolences to the family of the victims.
He also wished for a speedy recovery for those who were wounded in this attack in Rishon Letzion. Just listening to see if he's going to speak in English. No, he's going to speak in Hebrew.
So, also suggesting that President Bush had asked him to extend his condolences to all those affected, suggesting, and of course putting the words of President Bush in his words “dismay at the terrible massacre.” These, of course, Ariel Sharon's words suggesting that's what President Bush had said.
He also said he had come to the United States to discuss peace and stability and reform of the Palestinian Authority, but suggesting that there is no way, in his words, to move forward in the political process against terror and a corrupt entity, referring to the Palestinian Authority with veiled comments obviously pointed towards Yasser Arafat, never bringing up his name in particular.
Also saying in the face of sincere efforts to move forward in the political process, he called many people guilty, those who called for martyrs, those who launched terrorism, and those who found terrorism. He considers all of them guilty in this process.
Also very pointedly suggesting that anyone who tries to blackmail Israel with terror, Israel will not surrender. In fact, saying the words “Israel will not surrender to blackmail.”
He also said, “He who rises up to kill us, we will preempt it and kill him first.” Very, very pointed and heated words from Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
He's also said there will be no shelter for terrorists, whether that means Arafat will be exiled or in any way forced out of the West Bank and Gaza remains to be seen. He did not expound on those issues. He said that Israel will uproot terror, the terror infrastructure, and suggested that the work of Operation Defensive Shield, which was, of course, the almost month-long Israeli incursion into the West Bank, is not yet finished, suggesting there is much work to do and that the battle continues.
We've all been speculating as to what the reaction of Ariel Sharon and the Israeli Defense Forces will be upon his arrival back in Tel Aviv and in Israel. And he suggested right away that Operation Defensive Shield is not finished. Perhaps there will be further incursions as he returns home.
He's also said that Israel will act strongly with a heavy heart full of grief and full of rage. These, the comments just in the last few minutes from Ariel Sharon of Israel,, who is giving a live news conference as we speak here in Washington, DC, at the Madison Hotel.
Handlers have suggested that the first round of questions will be from the Israeli press. They'll be asked likely in Hebrew and answered in Hebrew, although there are some in the Israeli press, television as well, that broadcast in English. There may be some English questions too.
But clearly, the message is very, very strong. Israel's prime minister suggesting he was here in Washington on a mission of peace, but that this suicide bombing in Rishon Letzion 10 miles south of Tel Aviv has derailed that and instead has sent him packing short of his mission here in the United States back to Israel, back to perhaps Operation Defensive Shield, and back to some of the activities that the Bush administration has asked for an immediate stop.
Of course, the Bush administration very pointed in its direction of its policy with regard to Ariel Sharon asking that he pull out of the West Bank, all of the different cities there, particularly Ramallah and Bethlehem that had been under siege the longest. Of course, Bethlehem, still tanks and soldiers in that West Bank town because of the siege in the Church of the Nativity.
You heard our Tom Aspell saying that the resolution to that siege is not yet anywhere near complete. It was supposed to be today, but there's been a snag with the Italians. The Italians were supposed to, apparently according to the agreement, take the exiled Palestinians, although nobody told the Palestinians — excuse me, nobody told the Italians about the arriving Palestinians. So that needs to be worked out. And it remains to be seen how long it will take.
In the meantime, whether that deal in Bethlehem is still on, given what's just happened south of Tel Aviv, that is also something that also needs to be discussed probably at first light tomorrow because it's just 10 past 5:00 now in the morning in Israel. And, obviously, it's been a very long night for many in the government and also many who are dealing with the Bethlehem siege.
But the tough words included the words blackmail, Israel suggesting it will not surrender to blackmail and calling those who are responsible for calling for hundreds of martyrs and also those launching terrorist attacks and funding terrorism are guilty. There were veiled references and not so veiled references to the Saudis in a 105-page report that Ariel Sharon brought to him from Washington, D.C. to present to the CIA and also to show to President Bush and the Bush administration evidence that the Saudis, in his opinion, had been funding the Palestinians' efforts.
In any case, as we continue to watch this news conference, and as it's in Hebrew right now, I'm going to toss the reigns over to my colleague Alan Keyes, who is also broadcasting from Washington, D.C. He'll continue to monitor this news conference and continue with his program. And as they continue to speak in English, he'll bring it to you live. Over to you, Alan.
ALAN KEYES, MSNBC HOST: I'm Alan Keyes. Thank you, Ashleigh. Really appreciate it.
We've been watching the Israeli prime minister responding to the tragic events in Israel today, tragic events that I think cast a long shadow, particularly over the policies that have been pursued by the Bush administration and the United States with respect to the Middle East.
This terrorist attack has to raise serious questions now about the role of Yasser Arafat. The Israeli prime minister came to the United States yesterday with documentation to show us that Yasser Arafat is involved in terrorism.
If you watched my show last night, you saw as some of the representatives that we had, people who are speaking from the point of view of those sympathetic with the Palestinians, didn't even bother to try to refute the notion that Arafat is a terrorist, instead throwing up the smokescreen of so-called Israeli terrorism and so forth and so on. It's as if it's an undeniable fact. But that undeniable fact has been pushed to the side now by an American policy that aims to force Israel to continue to deal with Yasser Arafat as an interlocutor.
And yet, of course, the terrible attack today raises a question first about whether Arafat is sincerely committed to any kind of peace. With the Israeli prime minister meting with G.W. Bush, the president of the United States, this horrendous attack takes place. If it has taken place at the behest of, with the knowledge of, at the direction of Yasser Arafat, what does that tell not only about his commitment to peace, but about his utter contempt for the others involved in the process, including President Bush himself, who had insisted that Arafat has to show his leadership, prove that he is, in fact, not committed to terrorism. And yet this attack would seem to suggest that he is spitting in the face of that demand.
Or else — and here's the other possibility — or else Yasser Arafat is completely out of control in this situation. In fact, there are forces that are on the Palestinian side and on the Arab side over whom he has no control whatsoever, in which case, if we force the Israelis to sit down at a table and talk to him, what can they possibly get out of it?
We say land for peace. We say agreement for peace. And yet if Yasser Arafat is not in control of the forces inflicting this kind of devastation on Israel, then how can he deliver the peace? It doesn't make any sense.
I think that the evidence is pretty clear that Arafat and his cohorts have been involved, have been guiding and coordinating, and not only that, have been working for years to develop the psychological infrastructure, to develop in the minds of young people the deep hatred, the suicidal commitment that is required for these suicide bombings.
This isn't something that just happens overnight. It's something that has been worked on, that has developed, that has become part of the infrastructure of education and adulation in the Palestinian community under the leadership of Yasser Arafat.
And I think that this deadly terrorist attack ought to provide a watershed, a time for us to step back as Americans and reflect on what's going on here. We would not tolerate the kind of thing that is now going on against the Israelis. And yet everybody is trying to tell me that this somehow does not affect our war on terror.
We're lying to ourselves, my friends. We stood before the world and said that everybody had to join us in a war on terror. Was that just in a war on the terrorists who attack us? Or was it a war on all terrorists?
And we now going to allow all nations to say that they will only fight against the terrorists who directly affect them and not care about those who are killing people in other regions and yet who are part of the same mutually connected and supportive network? I think that if we stake that stand, the stand that has, in fact, been taken by Colin Powell and by G.W. Bush, following the advice of his secretary of state, we are fundamentally corrupting our terror policy. Now let's get back to Ariel Sharon.
(LIVE EVENT)
SHARON: Therefore, it seems that what you have said, saying that I have not got any approval whatsoever, we have...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't say that.
SHARON: ... If you didn't say that, I'm really glad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
SHARON: Of course I'm not going to tell. I said one thing...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
SHARON: Look, I would like to tell you one thing. Israel is independent country. And we must exercise our rights of self-defense. And we are doing exactly what any other country in the world, any other democracy, would have done.
And, of course, we had to take the necessary steps in order to exercise our rights. And that's what we are going to do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is the peace conference off as far as you're concerned? Are you still willing to risk ending the (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
SHARON: Look, I think that the original conference is a very important thing. I think that they should create the needed atmosphere to continue talks. But, of course, it's very hard to expect that if terror would continue that would be a, say, fruitful act. So, I'm all out — I support it. And I would like that that would happen. But at this moment now, I think Israel has to take some steps in order make an effort to stop this terror.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
KEYES: We're listening to Ariel Sharon, the prime minister of Israel, responding to questions about today's terrorist attack.
SHARON: No, the question was not raised. And nobody said that. I'm sure, of course, that the president and vice president are very much interested to move forward, the, say, forces, political forces. But I think it's very clear that in order for it to move forward with forces, first of all, there should be a cessation of terror, hostilities and incitement. And second, there must be real reforms in the Palestinian Authority. I think everyone agreed here, being here, agreed that there's an urgent need to reach those reforms, or to implement those reforms, in the Palestinian Authority.
KEYES: Prime Minister Sharon responding to questions. It's pretty clear that he's indicated the Israelis are going to be taking some action in response to this attack. That will lay on the table a situation where we'll be watching to see how the Bush administration responds. Are they again going to be chiding the Israelis for moving in defense against this kind of a devastating assault on Israeli civilians and on Israeli people? It's going put, I think, President Bush, in a clear situation needing to respond.
One of the questions that occurs to my mind as I watch this unfold — why...
SHARON: It's about the documents...
KEYES: ... just a second. Let's listen.
SHARON: ... first, as you know, there are hundreds of pages of documents. And these documents that we brought are only about five percent of the documents that we found there. So, no doubt, it will take time until they will be able to read through all these materials. I think it's very, very important that we provided that material that shows, say, the involvement of the Palestinian Authority in terror. So that's very clear there.
And this about the Saudis, I would say, first of all, I'm glad to see that an Arab leader came forward with a vision, a vision of peace between Israel and the Arab world. So this about the vision, I think its' important.
I would like you to know that Israel has been talking and offering this vision for the last 54 years since we declared our in dependence. But, as a matter of fact, we tried much earlier. And we were trying, I would say, to talk and to advocate a peace settlement between Israel and the Arab world.
There is one thing, of course, that worry us, the support that Saudi Arabia has given to the Hamas terrorist organization and the support that has been given to the families of terrorists, or the suicide bombers or suicide shooters. At the beginning when I heard about it, I expected that you would find that after the 11th of September last year, they stopped it. But I was very much surprised to find they continued their support to the families of the suicide bombers or shooters until the last days.
And that, of course, as I said, I think that Saudi Arabia, expressing this vision with courage, it's very important they will participate in the effort that they reach a peace in the Middle East. But I think they must stop immediately their support to the terrorist organizations and to the families of the suicide bombers. And that is, of course, our demand.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
KEYES: We're listening to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel making clear and reiterating again his demand that the Saudis have to stop their support for terrorism in addition to Yasser Arafat disengaging himself in the terrorists, in that sense still showing an openness to the Saudi proposals.
SHARON: ... And in one place, at least in Gaza, where all these forces were left intact. And terror is going on there daily, going on just two days ago. We managed to stop two groups of terrorists that — one that crushed defenses. And there were suiciders. And another group that — two here were killed on the first occasion.
And the second one, when a group of three that tried to cross the fences. And at least one of them was wearing these explosive belt. And they booked to Israel. And beside that, the mortar, all that continues. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and the Palestinians who are having other forces there. And they were intact.
Of course, let's say, you speak now about Samaria and Judea, or as you call it, the West Bank, we don't see it. Any instruction that has been given, one say that maybe there it's harder. But at least any instruction, an order, had not been given. So that shows cause that we don't see any change whatsoever in the Palestinian Authority with the men that, let's say, decided or chosen the strategy of terror from coalition of terror and never make any effort to stop it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
KEYES: Prime Minister Sharon emphasizing the continued involvement of Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority in both tolerating and possibly fomenting these acts of terrorism. No change, he says, from what has been occurring before, with the implication, of course, that there can be no change in Israel's refusal, in fact, to deal with Yasser Arafat as he represents this kind of terrorism, continuing to take that position, though he has been under pressure from the Bush administration to adopt a kind of negotiated any-cost approach.
(END LIVE EVENT)
KEYES: Joining us now, Democratic Congressman Eliot Engel of New York, a member of the House Subcommittee on the Middle East and Asia. Also with us, Saeb Erekat, the Washington, D.C. bureau chief of the “Al-Quds” newspaper, an Arab daily newspaper based in East Jerusalem. Gentlemen, welcome to MAKING SENSE.
I want to start this evening with Eliot Engel. Representative Engel, thank you for being with us.
As we watched these events unfold today, I at least have felt a sense of shock and some surprise that and that can devastating would have occurred with Sharon meeting with President Bush, almost a smack in the face, as it were, to the whole process. What do you think this does or should do to the kind of approach that the Bush administration has been taking toward Yasser Arafat, toward the Palestinian Authority, and what Israel has to do in dealing with them?
REP. ELIOT ENGEL (D-NY), SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE MIDDLE EAST AND ASIA: Well, it's interesting. This suicide bombing came at the very time that Prime Minister Sharon is in Washington meeting with President Bush. And you may remember the last bombing that took place in Jerusalem at the time Secretary Powell was over there.
I agree with you, Alan. I'm way beyond Arafat. I think it's beyond any kind of doubt that the man is still engaging in terrorism, that he's using terrorism as a negotiating tool. And I think that by our forcing Israel, or trying to force Israel, to deal with him and deal with terrorists, it undermines our own fight against terrorism.
If we can go to Afghanistan halfway around the world, and rightfully so, to fight terrorism, then we should not criticize Israel for doing the same thing in her own backyard. And I don't know why Israel is the only country in the world that is forced to deal with a terrorist. There should be no dealing with Yasser Arafat. He's a terrorist. And he should be shunned.
KEYES: Saeb Erekat, if Yasser Arafat is not responsible for this devastating attack that has taken place, then he's obviously not in control of the forces of violence that must be stopped in order for peace to be secure. If he doesn't have the competence to deal on his own side with the people who are perpetrating this violence, what sense does it make to deal with him as an interlocutor? Israel can't get peace from him.
SAEB EREKAT, DC BUREAU CHIEF, “AL-QUDS” NEWSPAPER: You know, I think this, what happened today, is proof positive that Sharon's policies have failed. They will continue to fail. I was just listened to the Israeli prime minister. He's the same old Sharon. He's bent on destruction and war with the Palestinians.
His history with the Palestinians is based on war crimes and massacres and so on. So I think that there is one authentic, bona fide terrorist alive today. It is Ariel Sharon. Only in your mind and in the minds of...
KEYES: You know, Mr. Arikat, I must say it's breathtaking...
(CROSSTALK)
EREKAT: ... in America, the rest of the world knows that Ariel Sharon has committed some heinous war crimes against the Palestinian. He continues to do that.
KEYES: Mr. Erekat...
EREKAT: He continues to threaten the Palestinians. He's using American weapons, which he's not supposed to use against Palestinian civilians and so on. The Palestinians have just come out of a massacre. We don't know what's gone on in Jenin and Nablus and other places. So he continues to do the same thing...
KEYES: Mr. Erekat, I find it, I must say, incredible arrogance of folks who come on the program like this. You dare to suggest to me that I am making up Palestinian terrorist out of whole cloth while we watch the scenes of devastation, while we look at the street spattered with blood? You're telling me that I'm making this up? I hardly think so.
(CROSSTALK)
KEYES: I hardly think so.
(CROSSTALK)
KEYES: One of the reasons that I find it hard to show patience with folks like you is that you would rather that I believe your nonsense than that I believe the evidence of my own eyes.
(CROSSTALK)
KEYES: Let me get back for a second to Representative Engel. Let me get back for a second to Representative Engel. Representative Engel — Representative Engel...
(CROSSTALK)
KEYES: ... Representative Engel, I do see in one area in American life some people who might be willing to go along with Mr. Erekat and believe words rather than deeds, whether it's Saudi words telling us that they don't support terrorism or Yasser Arafat's words telling us he's renounced violence. The Bush administration seems to be willing to listen to those words rather than the evidence of their own eyes. Do you think that makes sense?
ENGEL: No, I think it doesn't make sense. I think in a way President Bush is caught between a rock and a hard place. He knows Yasser Arafat is a terrorist. And he knows that no country can stand for these kinds of suicide bombings.
You know, the people that criticize Sharon, I don't know what else Sharon is supposed to do. Any leader of any country needs to defend its citizens.
(CROSSTALK)
ENGEL: Excuse me, I didn't interrupt you. Excuse me, I did not interrupt you...
(CROSSTALK)
ENGEL: Listen to me. If you don't want to be a gentleman, that's fine. But I didn't interrupt you.
EREKAT: I am very gentlemanly...
(CROSSTALK)
ENGEL: The fact of the matter is, the fact of the matter is...
(CROSSTALK)
ENGEL: Sir, you are interrupting...
KEYES: Gentlemen, we're going to have to take a break here. Just settle back if you have the time. More with our guests after this. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEYES: Welcome back to MAKING SENSE. I'm Alan Keyes.
We're talking, of course, about the latest suicide bombing in Israel. As you heard, Prime Minister Sharon has cut short his visit. He's going back. We're likely to see an Israeli counter strike. The implications of this event for the so-called efforts to renew the peace process as well as for the ongoing conflict seem to me to be pretty clear and devastating.
Still with us, Democratic Congressman Eliot Engel of New York, a member of the House Subcommittee on the Middle East and Asia. Also with us, Said Erekat, the Washington, D.C., bureau chief of “Al-Kuds” newspaper, an Arab daily based in East Jerusalem.
Welcome back, gentlemen.
Let me go back to Representative Engel to finish the comment that you were making there, that you were pointing out that President Bush is kind of in a powerless situation as he tries to deal with Yasser Arafat. I mean, clearly, we are dealing here with somebody who's identified with terrorism. Why do you think President Bush can't simply deal with him as such, given our own terrorist policy?
ENGEL: I think that President Bush is looking to Arab support for a U.S. incursion into Iraq, and, therefore, he's essentially saying that Israel ought to take the terrorist hits in order to try to piece together some kind of coalition.
I think it's a misguided policy, and I think, again, it undermines our war against terrorism, and I don't think — even though your other guest can justify terrorism, I don't think that terrorism can ever be justified, no matter what people's perceived grievances or gripes are.
And the fact of the matter is, when your other guest talks about so-called occupation, between 1948 when Israel was founded, the land was divided between an Arab state and a Jewish state, Israel accepted that. The Arabs did not, and they immediately attacked Israel.
From 1948 to 1967, the Arabs controlled what is today the West Bank, yet they neither established a Palestinian state, nor did they ever recognize the Jewish state of Israel.
So this nonsense that somehow the occupation is leading to the bombings or to terrorism, or, if Israel would just get out, everybody would recognize Israel's right to exist — the fact is the Arab never have, and, if you look at the Palestinian textbooks of — that they teach the children...
EREKAT: Have you ever read...
ENGEL: ... they have no reference to Israel at all.
EREKAT: Have you ever written a Palestinian textbook?
ENGEL: I have seen them. I have seen the Palestinian textbooks.
EREKAT: Have you? Have you ever read a Palestinian textbook?
ENGEL: I don't have to read it. I can see the map. The map does not make any reference to Israel.
(CROSSTALK)
ENGEL: Sir, you're about the rudest person I've ever debated.
(CROSSTALK)
ENGEL: You certainly are.
KEYES: Let him respond.
ENGEL: Are there any...
EREKAT: You know...
ENGEL: Are there any Palestinian textbooks — are there any Palestinian children's textbooks that list Israel as a state?
(CROSSTALK)
EREKAT: ... denied the existence of...
ENGEL: I'm asking you a question. Are there any Palestinian textbooks that list Israel as a country?
EREKAT: How...
ENGEL: Could you answer the question? Are there any Palestinian textbooks that Palestinian children have in school that list Israel as a country?
EREKAT: Is there an Israeli textbook that lists the Palestinians as an occupied people?
KEYES: I want to get back to...
ENGEL: You're not answering the question, so that proves my point.
EREKAT: Well, you're not debating me. I'm...
ENGEL: You're very disingenuous.
KEYES: In listening to...
EREKAT: I think Mr. Keyes — I want...
KEYES: Hold on. Hold on. Excuse me.
EREKAT: ... something about the...
KEYES: Hold on. I'm going to have to do it again. I don't like being rude, Mr. Erekat, but if you don't stop talking when I ask you to, we're not — we can't have a program.
EREKAT: It's OK. I want to have a program.
KEYES: Look, I will ask them to cut your mike off, and then I'll just talk.
EREKAT: Look, if it's your show, you can do anything. You know, you invited me.
KEYES: But the problem that we're seeing here and the fundamental distinction, I think, that we have a problem with and that I can't understand with the Bush administration, I can't understand it with Mr. Erekat and all the Palestinians that parade through here with the same old junk.
They actually think that there is some way that some argument they make is going to make me and other Americans feel that it's justified to go kill innocent folks. It's like we don't live in the country where the twin towers fell. We don't live in the country where thousands of our own fellow countrymen were sacrificed to this kind of rabid nonsense in the course of last fall. We don't have in our hearts the grief that was caused by that violence, and, therefore, we don't understand that when you cross that line...
EREKAT: Well, that's a very impressive speech, Mr. Keyes. That's a very impressive speech.
KEYES: ... when you have crossed that line, you have crossed out of that area...
EREKAT: The fact of the matter is...
KEYES: ... where we're going to negotiate with you.
EREKAT: I'll tell you...
KEYES: We didn't negotiate with the Taliban.
EREKAT: The line is crossed...
KEYES: We didn't negotiate with Osama bin Laden. The only thing that terrorists get to negotiate...
EREKAT: It's not the Palestinians. The Palestinians are occupied.
(CROSSTALK)
KEYES: ... that brings an end to their terrorism, and it seems to me that that's exactly what the Israelis are going to have to do right now.
EREKAT: Well, you're like an ostrich. You are. You're like an ostrich. You have your head in the sand. You don't want to recognize the occupation.
KEYES: It doesn't matter. What — the problem is you think that something about anything that you have just said justifies taking the lives of innocent civilians.
EREKAT: How am I taking the lives of...
(CROSSTALK)
EREKAT: How am I taking the lives of innocent Palestinians?
KEYES: ... and all it does to me...
EREKAT: Do you admit that —
KEYES: We understand exactly why the people of Israel...
EREKAT: I want to ask the congressman...
KEYES: ... have a hard time.
EREKAT: I want to ask the congressman.
KEYES: Every time...
EREKAT: I want to ask you something. Are there innocent Palestinians?
KEYES: ... they try to give up ground...
EREKAT: Do you admit that there are innocent Palestinians?
KEYES: ... that ground is used to murder innocent people. How can they give up any more?
EREKAT: Listen, Palestinian has been under occupation for decades. The way to end the violence is to end the occupation. Simple. Period.
KEYES: Actually, Mr. Erekat, that makes no sense at all.
(CROSSTALK)
ENGEL: Can you tell me why...
KEYES: That makes no sense at all.
ENGEL: Can you tell me why...
KEYES: Representative Engel, go ahead.
ENGEL: Yes. Nineteen months ago at Camp David, Arafat was offered a deal, which the Israelis agreed to and Arafat said no, which would have given the Palestinians a hundred percent of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank.
It would have given them a state of their own with billions of dollars of aid. Most of the settlements would have been dismantled. It gave them land.
Arafat said no, turned around, didn't offer a counterproposal, and then unleashed the intifada because he thought he could use terrorism as a negotiating tool. Alan is absolutely right. We can never justify terrorism.
You know, I still remember...
EREKAT: I'd like to respond to this...
ENGEL: I still remember — let me just finish, please. I still remember the scenes of Palestinians dancing in the streets when the World Trade Center went down, and I just think that we have to reject terrorism. Yes, there are legitimate grievances on both sides, but it can never, ever, ever be settled with terrorism.
EREKAT: Well, you know, on the issue of Camp David, I'm glad you brought that point up because there was really no offer made by Barak. That is just a big confusion. It's a big lie. You know, there was never an offer made by Barak.
They were, in fact, Clinton points. They were negotiated at Taba, but then Barak decided that it was more important for him to go back and run for reelection, and that's where (UNINTELLIGIBLE). So there was never an offer made. And let me ask you something.
ENGEL: No, no, no, no.
EREKAT: Why 97 percent?
ENGEL: What happened...
EREKAT: Why 97 percent?
ENGEL: What happened...
EREKAT: Why not 100 percent of the West Bank and Gaza?
ENGEL: Excuse me. You said there was no offer, and now you're saying, “What about 97 percent?”
EREKAT: There was no offer made by Barak. No.
ENGEL: Let me explain. If Arafat felt...
EREKAT: I'm saying that...
ENGEL: I'm trying to answer your question.
EREKAT: ... Barak did not make an offer. That's what I'm telling you.
ENGEL: No. This was a — this was — I've spoken with Dennis Ross.
EREKAT: I've spoken with Dennis Ross, too.
(CROSSTALK)
ENGEL: This was the Clinton administration's offer, which the Israelis accepted, the Palestinians said no.
KEYES: Gentlemen, I have to bring it to an end.
EREKAT: There is...
KEYES: Excuse me. Excuse me.
EREKAT: ... one way to end all the violence...
(CROSSTALK)
EREKAT: ... end the occupation today, stop...
KEYES: Gentlemen, thank you. Thank you for joining me here today. Really appreciate your joining me on the program here.
We're going to have a debate over whether Israel has proved its case against the Saudis.
One last remark before I go, though. People like Mr. Erekat — they seem to forget what we've been through in this country. I can't forget it. I don't think most Americans will. These terrorists are going to understand that, eventually, we're going to vomit up the folks who want to deal with you because we're sick of this violence.
You're watching America's news channel, MSNBC.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEYES: Welcome back to MAKING SENSE.
Now on to Israel's case against Saudi Arabia. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon brought these documents to the White House today. As we told you yesterday, they claim the Saudi government channeled $135 million through charities to Hamas, a terrorist organization.
Joining us now to discuss whether the Saudis are, indeed, patrons of terror, Hume Horan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia, and MSNBC terrorism analyst Steve Emerson, author of the book “Islamic Jihad.”
Gentlemen, welcome to MAKING SENSE. Thanks for joining me today.
STEVEN EMERSON, MSNBC TERRORISM ANALYST: Hey, Alan. Thanks.
KEYES: I want to explain the breaking events have, obviously, truncated things a little bit. We don't have a lot of time for this segment. I would simply want to put a question to each of you, starting with Ambassador Hume Horan.
We're looking at this renewed attack against Israel. We are looking at things that seem to suggest that Saudi money has been reaching the Hamas and other terroristic organizations.
Do you think that the Saudis have, in fact, been involved in terrorism? And what ought to be the consequences of such involvement, if any?
HUME HORAN, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SAUDI ARABIA: Alan, I'm quite certain that many of those documents are correct, that Saudi money is going to Palestinians of all shapes, sizes, and colors, and — including some of the worst ones, that this is an issue that President Bush has taken up with Crown Prince Abdullah.
That's probably a very good place for him to keep pushing. The crown prince is probably one of the more responsible people with whom we could deal because, elsewhere in the Saudi establishment, through many, many different channels, money, private money, official money, money from Palestinian taxes, from Palestinians who are working in Saudi Arabia make their way to Palestine.
And there's also the question of just international assistance in general to the Palestinians in Gaza. An awful lot of money goes there, and a lot of it, I believe, is diverted to wrong causes.
KEYES: Steven Emerson, you've done a lot of work looking at the money trail with respect to Saudi Arabia and terrorism. There's an infrastructure of education as well as actual action that inculcates the kind of hatred that then leads to these terrorist acts. Are the Saudis implicated in all aspects of this terroristic infrastructure?
EMERSON: The Saudis are large suppliers of funds for these religious endowments, and the religious endowments and these — the intifada committees and the Palestinian committees provide funds — and we're talking about tens of millions of dollars — to not just Palestinian militant groups, but to other radical Islamic groups around the world, such as the Abu Sayyef group in the Philippines, such as radical Bosnian groups, such as groups in Chechnya.
So there's a lot of money going from Saudi Arabia, and it's sort of commingled between the official Saudi government money, plus the religious clerics, and it goes into educational institutions, it goes into hospitals, and it also goes into the operational wings of terrorist organizations, and it's sort of commingled — that it's impossible almost to say let's pull out this $1 out of the $3 that is going to this hospital because the moneys are deliberately sort of clouded together so that you can't pull out one strand.
But there's almost no doubt, based on the documents that the Israelis provided, plus other documents that they collected and other documents I've seen in the United States that show clearly Saudi Arabia's monies are going to fund suicide fam — the bombers who carry out suicide bombings, and they perpetuate annuities so that the families know they'll be taken care of, and that guarantees a steady supply of suicide bombers.
KEYES: Ambassador Horan, very quickly, because we are coming close to the end of our time, as I look at this evidence that Saudi Arabia has been involved in terrorism and I look at what happened in the course of the week where the president, the secretary of state making it clear they've been closely consulting with the Saudis, calling them on what looks like a consultative basis —
I mean, I think it's raised a lot of questions in the minds of some Americans about the independence of their policy. Can we work this closely with a regime that is responsible for this kind of relationship with terrorism?
HORAN: It's a regime that has had some advantages for us. Looking at the other side of the question, though, the regime that — we have troubles with the Saudi regime perhaps, but that is nothing compared to the nonfunctionality of our relationship with the Palestinians who have continually promised to do this and promised to do that, and yet the terrorism goes on.
Arafat — he can either — you know, he is held responsible, as he should be as a president, but if he can't deliver, well, he shouldn't be president, and if he can deliver and keeps on doing these thing, he should not be president. I think one of the weaknesses lies on our relationship with Arafat.
KEYES: On that note — on that note, we're going to have to go. I'm sorry we had such a brief time, but events have overtaken us a little tonight. Thank you for joining us.
Next, a final thought on the latest bombing in Israel. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEYES: Now for my outrage of the day.
Obviously, the outrage focuses on the attack in the Middle East, the senseless destruction of innocent life, particularly targeted at young people. But what's even worse, in my opinion, was illustrated on the program tonight when Mr. Erekat acts as if with some language or justification, we're supposed to look past this slaughter of the innocent, this conscious, strategic targeting of innocent life, and start dealing with issues and negotiating and so forth.
I think the greatest tragedy of the wrongful Bush administration policy is that it gives the impression that terrorism is subject to negotiation. It gives the impression that we're going to listen to your arguments after you've killed thousands of our innocent people, that we want to hear what you have to say after you've crossed the line of human decency.
I think that we were clearer and made more sense when we stood before the world and made it clear that, when you cross that line, we don't have anything to say but stop, and, if you don't, we'll stop you. That's what Mr. Bush stood for at one time. That's what he ought to be standing for now. And I think as long as we continue to give license to people to think that there's some debate with terrorism, they will go on killing and thinking that we are engaged in some kind of debate.
The killing will stop when they no longer have this impression, and I think that President Bush needs to reflect on that fact, if his war on terror is to work.
That's my sense of it. Thanks. THE NEWS WITH BRIAN WILLIAMS is up next. I'll see you tomorrow.
ARIEL SHARON, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: Israel will not surrender to blackmail. Israel will not surrender to blackmail. He who rises up to kill us, we will preempt it and kill him first.
As we have proven, there is no and there never will be any shelter for terrorists, their abettors, or dispatchers, and all those who are engaged in terrorism. There is no and there never will be any shelter for evil.
Israel will act the same as any democracy that protects itself. Israel will act like any other democracy, which fights the forces of darkness. Israel will continue to uproot the terror infrastructure.
Operation Defensive Shield was vital and important in the dismantling of the terror infrastructure. The operation has yielded tremendous achievements, but our work is not done. The battle continues and will continue until all those who believe that they can make gains through the use of terror will cease to exist, will cease to exist. Israel will act strongly.
I depart now to Israel with a heavy heart, heavy with grief and heavy with rage, the rage of every man and woman in Israel, the rage of each and every Jew in the world, the rage of all those who share our values, freedom, liberty, and democracy.
Israel will fight for these values. Israel will fight anyone who tries to threaten these values. Israel will fight anyone who tries through suicide terrorism to sow fear. Israel will fight. Israel will triumph. And when victory prevails, Israel will make peace.
Thank you.
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Ariel Sharon was supposed to have accepted questions from the press. But we're waiting to see how they're going to facilitate this. Let's listen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We'll have some questions for the Israeli press first and then we'll move to the American press. Shimon Achsa (ph)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (SPEAKING IN HEBREW)
BANFIELD: They're going to take questions in Hebrew from the Israeli press first. And as they do that, let's just recap what Ariel Sharon just said, obviously starting off by suggesting all meetings are canceled as he prepares to head back to Israel, giving his condolences to the family of the victims.
He also wished for a speedy recovery for those who were wounded in this attack in Rishon Letzion. Just listening to see if he's going to speak in English. No, he's going to speak in Hebrew.
So, also suggesting that President Bush had asked him to extend his condolences to all those affected, suggesting, and of course putting the words of President Bush in his words “dismay at the terrible massacre.” These, of course, Ariel Sharon's words suggesting that's what President Bush had said.
He also said he had come to the United States to discuss peace and stability and reform of the Palestinian Authority, but suggesting that there is no way, in his words, to move forward in the political process against terror and a corrupt entity, referring to the Palestinian Authority with veiled comments obviously pointed towards Yasser Arafat, never bringing up his name in particular.
Also saying in the face of sincere efforts to move forward in the political process, he called many people guilty, those who called for martyrs, those who launched terrorism, and those who found terrorism. He considers all of them guilty in this process.
Also very pointedly suggesting that anyone who tries to blackmail Israel with terror, Israel will not surrender. In fact, saying the words “Israel will not surrender to blackmail.”
He also said, “He who rises up to kill us, we will preempt it and kill him first.” Very, very pointed and heated words from Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
He's also said there will be no shelter for terrorists, whether that means Arafat will be exiled or in any way forced out of the West Bank and Gaza remains to be seen. He did not expound on those issues. He said that Israel will uproot terror, the terror infrastructure, and suggested that the work of Operation Defensive Shield, which was, of course, the almost month-long Israeli incursion into the West Bank, is not yet finished, suggesting there is much work to do and that the battle continues.
We've all been speculating as to what the reaction of Ariel Sharon and the Israeli Defense Forces will be upon his arrival back in Tel Aviv and in Israel. And he suggested right away that Operation Defensive Shield is not finished. Perhaps there will be further incursions as he returns home.
He's also said that Israel will act strongly with a heavy heart full of grief and full of rage. These, the comments just in the last few minutes from Ariel Sharon of Israel,, who is giving a live news conference as we speak here in Washington, DC, at the Madison Hotel.
Handlers have suggested that the first round of questions will be from the Israeli press. They'll be asked likely in Hebrew and answered in Hebrew, although there are some in the Israeli press, television as well, that broadcast in English. There may be some English questions too.
But clearly, the message is very, very strong. Israel's prime minister suggesting he was here in Washington on a mission of peace, but that this suicide bombing in Rishon Letzion 10 miles south of Tel Aviv has derailed that and instead has sent him packing short of his mission here in the United States back to Israel, back to perhaps Operation Defensive Shield, and back to some of the activities that the Bush administration has asked for an immediate stop.
Of course, the Bush administration very pointed in its direction of its policy with regard to Ariel Sharon asking that he pull out of the West Bank, all of the different cities there, particularly Ramallah and Bethlehem that had been under siege the longest. Of course, Bethlehem, still tanks and soldiers in that West Bank town because of the siege in the Church of the Nativity.
You heard our Tom Aspell saying that the resolution to that siege is not yet anywhere near complete. It was supposed to be today, but there's been a snag with the Italians. The Italians were supposed to, apparently according to the agreement, take the exiled Palestinians, although nobody told the Palestinians — excuse me, nobody told the Italians about the arriving Palestinians. So that needs to be worked out. And it remains to be seen how long it will take.
In the meantime, whether that deal in Bethlehem is still on, given what's just happened south of Tel Aviv, that is also something that also needs to be discussed probably at first light tomorrow because it's just 10 past 5:00 now in the morning in Israel. And, obviously, it's been a very long night for many in the government and also many who are dealing with the Bethlehem siege.
But the tough words included the words blackmail, Israel suggesting it will not surrender to blackmail and calling those who are responsible for calling for hundreds of martyrs and also those launching terrorist attacks and funding terrorism are guilty. There were veiled references and not so veiled references to the Saudis in a 105-page report that Ariel Sharon brought to him from Washington, D.C. to present to the CIA and also to show to President Bush and the Bush administration evidence that the Saudis, in his opinion, had been funding the Palestinians' efforts.
In any case, as we continue to watch this news conference, and as it's in Hebrew right now, I'm going to toss the reigns over to my colleague Alan Keyes, who is also broadcasting from Washington, D.C. He'll continue to monitor this news conference and continue with his program. And as they continue to speak in English, he'll bring it to you live. Over to you, Alan.
ALAN KEYES, MSNBC HOST: I'm Alan Keyes. Thank you, Ashleigh. Really appreciate it.
We've been watching the Israeli prime minister responding to the tragic events in Israel today, tragic events that I think cast a long shadow, particularly over the policies that have been pursued by the Bush administration and the United States with respect to the Middle East.
This terrorist attack has to raise serious questions now about the role of Yasser Arafat. The Israeli prime minister came to the United States yesterday with documentation to show us that Yasser Arafat is involved in terrorism.
If you watched my show last night, you saw as some of the representatives that we had, people who are speaking from the point of view of those sympathetic with the Palestinians, didn't even bother to try to refute the notion that Arafat is a terrorist, instead throwing up the smokescreen of so-called Israeli terrorism and so forth and so on. It's as if it's an undeniable fact. But that undeniable fact has been pushed to the side now by an American policy that aims to force Israel to continue to deal with Yasser Arafat as an interlocutor.
And yet, of course, the terrible attack today raises a question first about whether Arafat is sincerely committed to any kind of peace. With the Israeli prime minister meting with G.W. Bush, the president of the United States, this horrendous attack takes place. If it has taken place at the behest of, with the knowledge of, at the direction of Yasser Arafat, what does that tell not only about his commitment to peace, but about his utter contempt for the others involved in the process, including President Bush himself, who had insisted that Arafat has to show his leadership, prove that he is, in fact, not committed to terrorism. And yet this attack would seem to suggest that he is spitting in the face of that demand.
Or else — and here's the other possibility — or else Yasser Arafat is completely out of control in this situation. In fact, there are forces that are on the Palestinian side and on the Arab side over whom he has no control whatsoever, in which case, if we force the Israelis to sit down at a table and talk to him, what can they possibly get out of it?
We say land for peace. We say agreement for peace. And yet if Yasser Arafat is not in control of the forces inflicting this kind of devastation on Israel, then how can he deliver the peace? It doesn't make any sense.
I think that the evidence is pretty clear that Arafat and his cohorts have been involved, have been guiding and coordinating, and not only that, have been working for years to develop the psychological infrastructure, to develop in the minds of young people the deep hatred, the suicidal commitment that is required for these suicide bombings.
This isn't something that just happens overnight. It's something that has been worked on, that has developed, that has become part of the infrastructure of education and adulation in the Palestinian community under the leadership of Yasser Arafat.
And I think that this deadly terrorist attack ought to provide a watershed, a time for us to step back as Americans and reflect on what's going on here. We would not tolerate the kind of thing that is now going on against the Israelis. And yet everybody is trying to tell me that this somehow does not affect our war on terror.
We're lying to ourselves, my friends. We stood before the world and said that everybody had to join us in a war on terror. Was that just in a war on the terrorists who attack us? Or was it a war on all terrorists?
And we now going to allow all nations to say that they will only fight against the terrorists who directly affect them and not care about those who are killing people in other regions and yet who are part of the same mutually connected and supportive network? I think that if we stake that stand, the stand that has, in fact, been taken by Colin Powell and by G.W. Bush, following the advice of his secretary of state, we are fundamentally corrupting our terror policy. Now let's get back to Ariel Sharon.
(LIVE EVENT)
SHARON: Therefore, it seems that what you have said, saying that I have not got any approval whatsoever, we have...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't say that.
SHARON: ... If you didn't say that, I'm really glad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
SHARON: Of course I'm not going to tell. I said one thing...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
SHARON: Look, I would like to tell you one thing. Israel is independent country. And we must exercise our rights of self-defense. And we are doing exactly what any other country in the world, any other democracy, would have done.
And, of course, we had to take the necessary steps in order to exercise our rights. And that's what we are going to do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is the peace conference off as far as you're concerned? Are you still willing to risk ending the (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
SHARON: Look, I think that the original conference is a very important thing. I think that they should create the needed atmosphere to continue talks. But, of course, it's very hard to expect that if terror would continue that would be a, say, fruitful act. So, I'm all out — I support it. And I would like that that would happen. But at this moment now, I think Israel has to take some steps in order make an effort to stop this terror.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
KEYES: We're listening to Ariel Sharon, the prime minister of Israel, responding to questions about today's terrorist attack.
SHARON: No, the question was not raised. And nobody said that. I'm sure, of course, that the president and vice president are very much interested to move forward, the, say, forces, political forces. But I think it's very clear that in order for it to move forward with forces, first of all, there should be a cessation of terror, hostilities and incitement. And second, there must be real reforms in the Palestinian Authority. I think everyone agreed here, being here, agreed that there's an urgent need to reach those reforms, or to implement those reforms, in the Palestinian Authority.
KEYES: Prime Minister Sharon responding to questions. It's pretty clear that he's indicated the Israelis are going to be taking some action in response to this attack. That will lay on the table a situation where we'll be watching to see how the Bush administration responds. Are they again going to be chiding the Israelis for moving in defense against this kind of a devastating assault on Israeli civilians and on Israeli people? It's going put, I think, President Bush, in a clear situation needing to respond.
One of the questions that occurs to my mind as I watch this unfold — why...
SHARON: It's about the documents...
KEYES: ... just a second. Let's listen.
SHARON: ... first, as you know, there are hundreds of pages of documents. And these documents that we brought are only about five percent of the documents that we found there. So, no doubt, it will take time until they will be able to read through all these materials. I think it's very, very important that we provided that material that shows, say, the involvement of the Palestinian Authority in terror. So that's very clear there.
And this about the Saudis, I would say, first of all, I'm glad to see that an Arab leader came forward with a vision, a vision of peace between Israel and the Arab world. So this about the vision, I think its' important.
I would like you to know that Israel has been talking and offering this vision for the last 54 years since we declared our in dependence. But, as a matter of fact, we tried much earlier. And we were trying, I would say, to talk and to advocate a peace settlement between Israel and the Arab world.
There is one thing, of course, that worry us, the support that Saudi Arabia has given to the Hamas terrorist organization and the support that has been given to the families of terrorists, or the suicide bombers or suicide shooters. At the beginning when I heard about it, I expected that you would find that after the 11th of September last year, they stopped it. But I was very much surprised to find they continued their support to the families of the suicide bombers or shooters until the last days.
And that, of course, as I said, I think that Saudi Arabia, expressing this vision with courage, it's very important they will participate in the effort that they reach a peace in the Middle East. But I think they must stop immediately their support to the terrorist organizations and to the families of the suicide bombers. And that is, of course, our demand.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
KEYES: We're listening to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel making clear and reiterating again his demand that the Saudis have to stop their support for terrorism in addition to Yasser Arafat disengaging himself in the terrorists, in that sense still showing an openness to the Saudi proposals.
SHARON: ... And in one place, at least in Gaza, where all these forces were left intact. And terror is going on there daily, going on just two days ago. We managed to stop two groups of terrorists that — one that crushed defenses. And there were suiciders. And another group that — two here were killed on the first occasion.
And the second one, when a group of three that tried to cross the fences. And at least one of them was wearing these explosive belt. And they booked to Israel. And beside that, the mortar, all that continues. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and the Palestinians who are having other forces there. And they were intact.
Of course, let's say, you speak now about Samaria and Judea, or as you call it, the West Bank, we don't see it. Any instruction that has been given, one say that maybe there it's harder. But at least any instruction, an order, had not been given. So that shows cause that we don't see any change whatsoever in the Palestinian Authority with the men that, let's say, decided or chosen the strategy of terror from coalition of terror and never make any effort to stop it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
KEYES: Prime Minister Sharon emphasizing the continued involvement of Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority in both tolerating and possibly fomenting these acts of terrorism. No change, he says, from what has been occurring before, with the implication, of course, that there can be no change in Israel's refusal, in fact, to deal with Yasser Arafat as he represents this kind of terrorism, continuing to take that position, though he has been under pressure from the Bush administration to adopt a kind of negotiated any-cost approach.
(END LIVE EVENT)
KEYES: Joining us now, Democratic Congressman Eliot Engel of New York, a member of the House Subcommittee on the Middle East and Asia. Also with us, Saeb Erekat, the Washington, D.C. bureau chief of the “Al-Quds” newspaper, an Arab daily newspaper based in East Jerusalem. Gentlemen, welcome to MAKING SENSE.
I want to start this evening with Eliot Engel. Representative Engel, thank you for being with us.
As we watched these events unfold today, I at least have felt a sense of shock and some surprise that and that can devastating would have occurred with Sharon meeting with President Bush, almost a smack in the face, as it were, to the whole process. What do you think this does or should do to the kind of approach that the Bush administration has been taking toward Yasser Arafat, toward the Palestinian Authority, and what Israel has to do in dealing with them?
REP. ELIOT ENGEL (D-NY), SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE MIDDLE EAST AND ASIA: Well, it's interesting. This suicide bombing came at the very time that Prime Minister Sharon is in Washington meeting with President Bush. And you may remember the last bombing that took place in Jerusalem at the time Secretary Powell was over there.
I agree with you, Alan. I'm way beyond Arafat. I think it's beyond any kind of doubt that the man is still engaging in terrorism, that he's using terrorism as a negotiating tool. And I think that by our forcing Israel, or trying to force Israel, to deal with him and deal with terrorists, it undermines our own fight against terrorism.
If we can go to Afghanistan halfway around the world, and rightfully so, to fight terrorism, then we should not criticize Israel for doing the same thing in her own backyard. And I don't know why Israel is the only country in the world that is forced to deal with a terrorist. There should be no dealing with Yasser Arafat. He's a terrorist. And he should be shunned.
KEYES: Saeb Erekat, if Yasser Arafat is not responsible for this devastating attack that has taken place, then he's obviously not in control of the forces of violence that must be stopped in order for peace to be secure. If he doesn't have the competence to deal on his own side with the people who are perpetrating this violence, what sense does it make to deal with him as an interlocutor? Israel can't get peace from him.
SAEB EREKAT, DC BUREAU CHIEF, “AL-QUDS” NEWSPAPER: You know, I think this, what happened today, is proof positive that Sharon's policies have failed. They will continue to fail. I was just listened to the Israeli prime minister. He's the same old Sharon. He's bent on destruction and war with the Palestinians.
His history with the Palestinians is based on war crimes and massacres and so on. So I think that there is one authentic, bona fide terrorist alive today. It is Ariel Sharon. Only in your mind and in the minds of...
KEYES: You know, Mr. Arikat, I must say it's breathtaking...
(CROSSTALK)
EREKAT: ... in America, the rest of the world knows that Ariel Sharon has committed some heinous war crimes against the Palestinian. He continues to do that.
KEYES: Mr. Erekat...
EREKAT: He continues to threaten the Palestinians. He's using American weapons, which he's not supposed to use against Palestinian civilians and so on. The Palestinians have just come out of a massacre. We don't know what's gone on in Jenin and Nablus and other places. So he continues to do the same thing...
KEYES: Mr. Erekat, I find it, I must say, incredible arrogance of folks who come on the program like this. You dare to suggest to me that I am making up Palestinian terrorist out of whole cloth while we watch the scenes of devastation, while we look at the street spattered with blood? You're telling me that I'm making this up? I hardly think so.
(CROSSTALK)
KEYES: I hardly think so.
(CROSSTALK)
KEYES: One of the reasons that I find it hard to show patience with folks like you is that you would rather that I believe your nonsense than that I believe the evidence of my own eyes.
(CROSSTALK)
KEYES: Let me get back for a second to Representative Engel. Let me get back for a second to Representative Engel. Representative Engel — Representative Engel...
(CROSSTALK)
KEYES: ... Representative Engel, I do see in one area in American life some people who might be willing to go along with Mr. Erekat and believe words rather than deeds, whether it's Saudi words telling us that they don't support terrorism or Yasser Arafat's words telling us he's renounced violence. The Bush administration seems to be willing to listen to those words rather than the evidence of their own eyes. Do you think that makes sense?
ENGEL: No, I think it doesn't make sense. I think in a way President Bush is caught between a rock and a hard place. He knows Yasser Arafat is a terrorist. And he knows that no country can stand for these kinds of suicide bombings.
You know, the people that criticize Sharon, I don't know what else Sharon is supposed to do. Any leader of any country needs to defend its citizens.
(CROSSTALK)
ENGEL: Excuse me, I didn't interrupt you. Excuse me, I did not interrupt you...
(CROSSTALK)
ENGEL: Listen to me. If you don't want to be a gentleman, that's fine. But I didn't interrupt you.
EREKAT: I am very gentlemanly...
(CROSSTALK)
ENGEL: The fact of the matter is, the fact of the matter is...
(CROSSTALK)
ENGEL: Sir, you are interrupting...
KEYES: Gentlemen, we're going to have to take a break here. Just settle back if you have the time. More with our guests after this. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEYES: Welcome back to MAKING SENSE. I'm Alan Keyes.
We're talking, of course, about the latest suicide bombing in Israel. As you heard, Prime Minister Sharon has cut short his visit. He's going back. We're likely to see an Israeli counter strike. The implications of this event for the so-called efforts to renew the peace process as well as for the ongoing conflict seem to me to be pretty clear and devastating.
Still with us, Democratic Congressman Eliot Engel of New York, a member of the House Subcommittee on the Middle East and Asia. Also with us, Said Erekat, the Washington, D.C., bureau chief of “Al-Kuds” newspaper, an Arab daily based in East Jerusalem.
Welcome back, gentlemen.
Let me go back to Representative Engel to finish the comment that you were making there, that you were pointing out that President Bush is kind of in a powerless situation as he tries to deal with Yasser Arafat. I mean, clearly, we are dealing here with somebody who's identified with terrorism. Why do you think President Bush can't simply deal with him as such, given our own terrorist policy?
ENGEL: I think that President Bush is looking to Arab support for a U.S. incursion into Iraq, and, therefore, he's essentially saying that Israel ought to take the terrorist hits in order to try to piece together some kind of coalition.
I think it's a misguided policy, and I think, again, it undermines our war against terrorism, and I don't think — even though your other guest can justify terrorism, I don't think that terrorism can ever be justified, no matter what people's perceived grievances or gripes are.
And the fact of the matter is, when your other guest talks about so-called occupation, between 1948 when Israel was founded, the land was divided between an Arab state and a Jewish state, Israel accepted that. The Arabs did not, and they immediately attacked Israel.
From 1948 to 1967, the Arabs controlled what is today the West Bank, yet they neither established a Palestinian state, nor did they ever recognize the Jewish state of Israel.
So this nonsense that somehow the occupation is leading to the bombings or to terrorism, or, if Israel would just get out, everybody would recognize Israel's right to exist — the fact is the Arab never have, and, if you look at the Palestinian textbooks of — that they teach the children...
EREKAT: Have you ever read...
ENGEL: ... they have no reference to Israel at all.
EREKAT: Have you ever written a Palestinian textbook?
ENGEL: I have seen them. I have seen the Palestinian textbooks.
EREKAT: Have you? Have you ever read a Palestinian textbook?
ENGEL: I don't have to read it. I can see the map. The map does not make any reference to Israel.
(CROSSTALK)
ENGEL: Sir, you're about the rudest person I've ever debated.
(CROSSTALK)
ENGEL: You certainly are.
KEYES: Let him respond.
ENGEL: Are there any...
EREKAT: You know...
ENGEL: Are there any Palestinian textbooks — are there any Palestinian children's textbooks that list Israel as a state?
(CROSSTALK)
EREKAT: ... denied the existence of...
ENGEL: I'm asking you a question. Are there any Palestinian textbooks that list Israel as a country?
EREKAT: How...
ENGEL: Could you answer the question? Are there any Palestinian textbooks that Palestinian children have in school that list Israel as a country?
EREKAT: Is there an Israeli textbook that lists the Palestinians as an occupied people?
KEYES: I want to get back to...
ENGEL: You're not answering the question, so that proves my point.
EREKAT: Well, you're not debating me. I'm...
ENGEL: You're very disingenuous.
KEYES: In listening to...
EREKAT: I think Mr. Keyes — I want...
KEYES: Hold on. Hold on. Excuse me.
EREKAT: ... something about the...
KEYES: Hold on. I'm going to have to do it again. I don't like being rude, Mr. Erekat, but if you don't stop talking when I ask you to, we're not — we can't have a program.
EREKAT: It's OK. I want to have a program.
KEYES: Look, I will ask them to cut your mike off, and then I'll just talk.
EREKAT: Look, if it's your show, you can do anything. You know, you invited me.
KEYES: But the problem that we're seeing here and the fundamental distinction, I think, that we have a problem with and that I can't understand with the Bush administration, I can't understand it with Mr. Erekat and all the Palestinians that parade through here with the same old junk.
They actually think that there is some way that some argument they make is going to make me and other Americans feel that it's justified to go kill innocent folks. It's like we don't live in the country where the twin towers fell. We don't live in the country where thousands of our own fellow countrymen were sacrificed to this kind of rabid nonsense in the course of last fall. We don't have in our hearts the grief that was caused by that violence, and, therefore, we don't understand that when you cross that line...
EREKAT: Well, that's a very impressive speech, Mr. Keyes. That's a very impressive speech.
KEYES: ... when you have crossed that line, you have crossed out of that area...
EREKAT: The fact of the matter is...
KEYES: ... where we're going to negotiate with you.
EREKAT: I'll tell you...
KEYES: We didn't negotiate with the Taliban.
EREKAT: The line is crossed...
KEYES: We didn't negotiate with Osama bin Laden. The only thing that terrorists get to negotiate...
EREKAT: It's not the Palestinians. The Palestinians are occupied.
(CROSSTALK)
KEYES: ... that brings an end to their terrorism, and it seems to me that that's exactly what the Israelis are going to have to do right now.
EREKAT: Well, you're like an ostrich. You are. You're like an ostrich. You have your head in the sand. You don't want to recognize the occupation.
KEYES: It doesn't matter. What — the problem is you think that something about anything that you have just said justifies taking the lives of innocent civilians.
EREKAT: How am I taking the lives of...
(CROSSTALK)
EREKAT: How am I taking the lives of innocent Palestinians?
KEYES: ... and all it does to me...
EREKAT: Do you admit that —
KEYES: We understand exactly why the people of Israel...
EREKAT: I want to ask the congressman...
KEYES: ... have a hard time.
EREKAT: I want to ask the congressman.
KEYES: Every time...
EREKAT: I want to ask you something. Are there innocent Palestinians?
KEYES: ... they try to give up ground...
EREKAT: Do you admit that there are innocent Palestinians?
KEYES: ... that ground is used to murder innocent people. How can they give up any more?
EREKAT: Listen, Palestinian has been under occupation for decades. The way to end the violence is to end the occupation. Simple. Period.
KEYES: Actually, Mr. Erekat, that makes no sense at all.
(CROSSTALK)
ENGEL: Can you tell me why...
KEYES: That makes no sense at all.
ENGEL: Can you tell me why...
KEYES: Representative Engel, go ahead.
ENGEL: Yes. Nineteen months ago at Camp David, Arafat was offered a deal, which the Israelis agreed to and Arafat said no, which would have given the Palestinians a hundred percent of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank.
It would have given them a state of their own with billions of dollars of aid. Most of the settlements would have been dismantled. It gave them land.
Arafat said no, turned around, didn't offer a counterproposal, and then unleashed the intifada because he thought he could use terrorism as a negotiating tool. Alan is absolutely right. We can never justify terrorism.
You know, I still remember...
EREKAT: I'd like to respond to this...
ENGEL: I still remember — let me just finish, please. I still remember the scenes of Palestinians dancing in the streets when the World Trade Center went down, and I just think that we have to reject terrorism. Yes, there are legitimate grievances on both sides, but it can never, ever, ever be settled with terrorism.
EREKAT: Well, you know, on the issue of Camp David, I'm glad you brought that point up because there was really no offer made by Barak. That is just a big confusion. It's a big lie. You know, there was never an offer made by Barak.
They were, in fact, Clinton points. They were negotiated at Taba, but then Barak decided that it was more important for him to go back and run for reelection, and that's where (UNINTELLIGIBLE). So there was never an offer made. And let me ask you something.
ENGEL: No, no, no, no.
EREKAT: Why 97 percent?
ENGEL: What happened...
EREKAT: Why 97 percent?
ENGEL: What happened...
EREKAT: Why not 100 percent of the West Bank and Gaza?
ENGEL: Excuse me. You said there was no offer, and now you're saying, “What about 97 percent?”
EREKAT: There was no offer made by Barak. No.
ENGEL: Let me explain. If Arafat felt...
EREKAT: I'm saying that...
ENGEL: I'm trying to answer your question.
EREKAT: ... Barak did not make an offer. That's what I'm telling you.
ENGEL: No. This was a — this was — I've spoken with Dennis Ross.
EREKAT: I've spoken with Dennis Ross, too.
(CROSSTALK)
ENGEL: This was the Clinton administration's offer, which the Israelis accepted, the Palestinians said no.
KEYES: Gentlemen, I have to bring it to an end.
EREKAT: There is...
KEYES: Excuse me. Excuse me.
EREKAT: ... one way to end all the violence...
(CROSSTALK)
EREKAT: ... end the occupation today, stop...
KEYES: Gentlemen, thank you. Thank you for joining me here today. Really appreciate your joining me on the program here.
We're going to have a debate over whether Israel has proved its case against the Saudis.
One last remark before I go, though. People like Mr. Erekat — they seem to forget what we've been through in this country. I can't forget it. I don't think most Americans will. These terrorists are going to understand that, eventually, we're going to vomit up the folks who want to deal with you because we're sick of this violence.
You're watching America's news channel, MSNBC.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEYES: Welcome back to MAKING SENSE.
Now on to Israel's case against Saudi Arabia. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon brought these documents to the White House today. As we told you yesterday, they claim the Saudi government channeled $135 million through charities to Hamas, a terrorist organization.
Joining us now to discuss whether the Saudis are, indeed, patrons of terror, Hume Horan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia, and MSNBC terrorism analyst Steve Emerson, author of the book “Islamic Jihad.”
Gentlemen, welcome to MAKING SENSE. Thanks for joining me today.
STEVEN EMERSON, MSNBC TERRORISM ANALYST: Hey, Alan. Thanks.
KEYES: I want to explain the breaking events have, obviously, truncated things a little bit. We don't have a lot of time for this segment. I would simply want to put a question to each of you, starting with Ambassador Hume Horan.
We're looking at this renewed attack against Israel. We are looking at things that seem to suggest that Saudi money has been reaching the Hamas and other terroristic organizations.
Do you think that the Saudis have, in fact, been involved in terrorism? And what ought to be the consequences of such involvement, if any?
HUME HORAN, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SAUDI ARABIA: Alan, I'm quite certain that many of those documents are correct, that Saudi money is going to Palestinians of all shapes, sizes, and colors, and — including some of the worst ones, that this is an issue that President Bush has taken up with Crown Prince Abdullah.
That's probably a very good place for him to keep pushing. The crown prince is probably one of the more responsible people with whom we could deal because, elsewhere in the Saudi establishment, through many, many different channels, money, private money, official money, money from Palestinian taxes, from Palestinians who are working in Saudi Arabia make their way to Palestine.
And there's also the question of just international assistance in general to the Palestinians in Gaza. An awful lot of money goes there, and a lot of it, I believe, is diverted to wrong causes.
KEYES: Steven Emerson, you've done a lot of work looking at the money trail with respect to Saudi Arabia and terrorism. There's an infrastructure of education as well as actual action that inculcates the kind of hatred that then leads to these terrorist acts. Are the Saudis implicated in all aspects of this terroristic infrastructure?
EMERSON: The Saudis are large suppliers of funds for these religious endowments, and the religious endowments and these — the intifada committees and the Palestinian committees provide funds — and we're talking about tens of millions of dollars — to not just Palestinian militant groups, but to other radical Islamic groups around the world, such as the Abu Sayyef group in the Philippines, such as radical Bosnian groups, such as groups in Chechnya.
So there's a lot of money going from Saudi Arabia, and it's sort of commingled between the official Saudi government money, plus the religious clerics, and it goes into educational institutions, it goes into hospitals, and it also goes into the operational wings of terrorist organizations, and it's sort of commingled — that it's impossible almost to say let's pull out this $1 out of the $3 that is going to this hospital because the moneys are deliberately sort of clouded together so that you can't pull out one strand.
But there's almost no doubt, based on the documents that the Israelis provided, plus other documents that they collected and other documents I've seen in the United States that show clearly Saudi Arabia's monies are going to fund suicide fam — the bombers who carry out suicide bombings, and they perpetuate annuities so that the families know they'll be taken care of, and that guarantees a steady supply of suicide bombers.
KEYES: Ambassador Horan, very quickly, because we are coming close to the end of our time, as I look at this evidence that Saudi Arabia has been involved in terrorism and I look at what happened in the course of the week where the president, the secretary of state making it clear they've been closely consulting with the Saudis, calling them on what looks like a consultative basis —
I mean, I think it's raised a lot of questions in the minds of some Americans about the independence of their policy. Can we work this closely with a regime that is responsible for this kind of relationship with terrorism?
HORAN: It's a regime that has had some advantages for us. Looking at the other side of the question, though, the regime that — we have troubles with the Saudi regime perhaps, but that is nothing compared to the nonfunctionality of our relationship with the Palestinians who have continually promised to do this and promised to do that, and yet the terrorism goes on.
Arafat — he can either — you know, he is held responsible, as he should be as a president, but if he can't deliver, well, he shouldn't be president, and if he can deliver and keeps on doing these thing, he should not be president. I think one of the weaknesses lies on our relationship with Arafat.
KEYES: On that note — on that note, we're going to have to go. I'm sorry we had such a brief time, but events have overtaken us a little tonight. Thank you for joining us.
Next, a final thought on the latest bombing in Israel. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEYES: Now for my outrage of the day.
Obviously, the outrage focuses on the attack in the Middle East, the senseless destruction of innocent life, particularly targeted at young people. But what's even worse, in my opinion, was illustrated on the program tonight when Mr. Erekat acts as if with some language or justification, we're supposed to look past this slaughter of the innocent, this conscious, strategic targeting of innocent life, and start dealing with issues and negotiating and so forth.
I think the greatest tragedy of the wrongful Bush administration policy is that it gives the impression that terrorism is subject to negotiation. It gives the impression that we're going to listen to your arguments after you've killed thousands of our innocent people, that we want to hear what you have to say after you've crossed the line of human decency.
I think that we were clearer and made more sense when we stood before the world and made it clear that, when you cross that line, we don't have anything to say but stop, and, if you don't, we'll stop you. That's what Mr. Bush stood for at one time. That's what he ought to be standing for now. And I think as long as we continue to give license to people to think that there's some debate with terrorism, they will go on killing and thinking that we are engaged in some kind of debate.
The killing will stop when they no longer have this impression, and I think that President Bush needs to reflect on that fact, if his war on terror is to work.
That's my sense of it. Thanks. THE NEWS WITH BRIAN WILLIAMS is up next. I'll see you tomorrow.