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Alan Keyes is Making Sense
Alan KeyesMarch 28, 2002
PAT BUCHANAN, MSNBC GUEST HOST: Good evening and welcome to MAKING SENSE. I'm Pat Buchanan sitting in for Alan Keyes.
Twenty-four hours after that horrific Passover massacre in the beach city of Netanya in Israel by Palestinian suicide bomber, Yasser Arafat offered an unconditional cease-fire. But it may be too late. There's talk tonight of an all-out Israeli assault to smash the Palestinians once and for all. And reports tonight of Israeli tanks moving towards Ramallah, the headquarters of Yasser Arafat himself.
Let's go to MSNBC world headquarters for the latest on the developing crisis in the Middle East — Lester.
LESTER HOLT, NBC ANCHOR: And good evening, everyone. I'm Lester Holt.
It's a little after 5:00 in the morning in Israel right now. The Israeli cabinet, Ariel Sharon meeting into the wee hours of the morning, still reportedly meeting, debating whether to launch an all-out offensive against Palestinian militants in response to yesterday's suicide bombing. At the same time, Israeli tanks on the roll now in Ramallah. There have been reports of gun fire.
That's where MSNBC's Dana Lewis is now. Dana, what have you observed tonight?
DANA LEWIS, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Lester. We're actually in the center of Ramallah in front of a window here because it's too dangerous to be on the roof. I can tell you that for the last hour now, I have heard a lot of gun fire coming to the south of me, and that's where that window is looking, towards the headquarters of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Heavy machine gun fire, I have heard myself, I have also heard at least a 15 to 20 blasts that sounded like tank fire. We have been talking to people both inside the compound and around the compound of Yasser Arafat's headquarters in the south of Ramallah, one person inside the headquarters is telling us that there are tanks that are moving around the headquarters and we have that independently confirmed from somebody on the outside who we spoke with by phone, who said that the tanks are about 300 meters from Yasser Arafat's headquarters.
The Israeli army has confirmed that they have a targeted operation under way in Ramallah. Of course, not naming that target, but it would appear to be either the actual headquarters of Yasser Arafat right now, or at least some sort of operation to surround the headquarters, which is taking place, we have heard ambulances as well, and reports that at least 10 Palestinians have been wounded so far — Lester.
HOLT: Dana, in anticipation of this sort of offensive, Yasser Arafat had called or reportedly had begun rounding up or arresting militants. Were you able to observe any of that and confirm that the Palestinian authorities are making those moves?
LEWIS: Could not confirm that and we actually spoke — I sat down with a member of Hamas here in Ramallah today. He is one of the political leaders of Hamas. I asked him, have any of your members been arrested today and he said he didn't know of any that had been arrested at that time.
I also met tonight personally with Yasser Arafat's preventive security chief, Jabril Rugib (ph) here, and he told us that they are waiting for the cease-fire talks to continue. But Yasser Arafat — and I was in his news conference, did not call for an unconditional cease-fire tonight. He called for a cease-fire under the Tenet plan, which means that he would not go along with any of these so-called bridging amendments that U.S. Envoy Anthony Zinni has been proposing here. The Palestinians basically saying that they would go ahead with the old cease-fire plan, but they wouldn't go ahead with any of the proposed amendments that have been on the table for the last two weeks — Lester.
HOLT: Now, as far as these meetings, cabinet meetings going on now with the government, is there still anticipation that a greater offensive is to come or is what you're seeing in Ramallah appear to be it for now?
LEWIS: Well, if it's Yasser Arafat's headquarters that they're moving on, they don't have to do much more than that. That is a major event here and Palestinian leaders are telling us that if that were to happen, all hell would break loose. What do they intend to do in the headquarters? Are they going to arrest Arafat, push him out of the country? That's the speculation here by many of the Palestinians and the security forces here. There is great concern that the Israelis have made a decision to bring down the Palestinian Authority. That is a terrific, tremendous turning point in this on-going conflict, and there's probably no turning back from that.
HOLT: MSNBC's Dana Lewis reporting from Ramallah. Dana, thanks very much. And again, at last report we had Ariel Sharon and his cabinet still huddled in those meetings a little after 5:00 in the morning. Sharon is expected to come out and talk to reporters at the conclusion of those meetings. We'll monitoring that and bring it to you when it happens.
For now, that's the latest from MSNBC World Headquarters. I'm Lester Holt. Now back to ALAN KEYES IS MAKING SENSE with Pat Buchanan tonight.
BUCHANAN: Thanks, Lester. We'll take another look at the Israeli retaliation during this half-hour, as well as the Arab summit in Beirut, which ended today with formal approval of that Saudi peace plan, seemingly directed more at the Israeli people than at Ariel Sharon's regime. Here are the highlights: In return for peace, Israel must, one, withdraw to her 1967 borders, including getting off the Golan Heights entirely. Two, accept a sovereign, independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza with East Jerusalem as its capital. And, three, Israel must look for a “just solution” to the Palestinians' right of return.
Is this Palestinian — or is this Saudi plan really a historic breakthrough or are we looking at just another utopian scheme that will be forgotten in a fortnight?
Up front tonight, Richard Pearl, former assistant secretary of defense under Ronald Reagan. Earlier, I asked him about the Arafat situation and the Saudi plan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD PEARL, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: There had been many cease-fires and even more promises, and the cease-fires have broken down, and violence has continued. The promises have been broken. It's hard to be anything other than discouraged at the pattern that has developed of suicide bombing used as a political instrument.
BUCHANAN: Well, these are atrocities, no question about it. But each time, in this example, up in Netanya, for example, Hamas took credit for it. Hamas has said it rejects what's going on in Beirut in terms of a peace plan. Arafat says he condemns what happened in Netanya and Arafat says he will accept the peace plan, and yet the Israelis go after Arafat rather than blaming Hamas. Why is that?
PEARL: Because Arafat controls the territory from which these attacks originate. The attacks don't originate in Lebanon where Hamas has headquarters. They don't originate in Tehran where the Iranians support terrorism. They originate in the West Bank. And it is the Israeli view that if Arafat wished to stopped the violence, he's in a position to do so. And if he's not in a position to stop the violence, then what is the point of negotiating with Arafat?
BUCHANAN: Well, what — let me ask you, what is your conclusion as to that? Is Arafat, does he not want the violence and the atrocities, and the suicide bombing to stop or does he not have the ability to do it now, in part because Israelis have pretty much smashed his infrastructure, he's not even paying his policemen, he's locked up in Ramallah, his headquarters have been smashed. And how can he stop these terrorist attacks if the Israelis, who have heavily infiltrated the West Bank and Gaza, they're unable to stop these massacres of their own citizens. How does Arafat do it?
PEARL: Well, sadly, I've come to the conclusion, I don't know what others think, that Arafat rather likes the combination of suicide bombing that he believes is driving the Israelis into the arms of some compromise, perhaps under pressure from the United States, and the denial of responsibility for suicide bombing at the same time. The best of both worlds. There's a long history of Arafat disassociating himself publicly from acts of terror, while working hand in glove with terrorists. And let me remind you of the lies he told about the Kareem A, the shipment of —
BUCHANAN: Iranian arms.
PEARL: Of Iranian arms. He said he knew nothing about it. Well, that's obviously a lie. He knew all about it.
BUCHANAN: All right. Now let's go up to Beirut or at least go back to Beirut as of yesterday. The Saudis apparently have offered a peace plan, which almost all the Arab countries have signed on to. Hamas has rejected it. I think Qadhafi has rejected it. But he's offered, in effect, peace to the Israelis and normalization of relations if they will give up everything they took in the six-day war in 1967.
While this is far advanced from the Barak plan, which gave up about 95 percent of the West Bank, and offered the Palestinians part of Jerusalem, is there not here at least something to work with?
PEARL: Well, in all of these diplomatic formulas, the details turn out to be very important. But beyond the diplomacy, and we've had decades of diplomacy surrounding these issues, there is, it seems to me, Pat, a much more fundamental question that is deep in the culture, the history, the psychology, and the politics of this dispute.
If you watch Palestinian television tonight, you will see the Palestinian Tom Brokaw reading the news. And behind him is a map. There's no Israel on that map. For the Palestinians, Israel doesn't exist. If you go to a grade school in the Palestinian Authority, you are likely to see children 6 and 7 and 8 years old, marching with wooden rifles —
BUCHANAN: But you know —
PEARL: Calling for jihad.
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: But, Richard, they had that, I'm sure, the same maps of all of Palestine, colored red as one country in Cairo. But the Egyptians have agreed to recognize Israel. The Jordanians have agreed to recognize Israel. The Saudis have offered a plan. Every Arab nation has signed on to it, except the rejectionists, the altruists, who have said no.
I mean, isn't it worth trying? I mean, if the alternative is Netanyas and the alternative is Ramallahs, you know, forever on end, I mean, where are we going? Doesn't there have to be some effort at some point where Sharon says this is my bottom line and the Arabs say this is my bottom line and the Americans try to pull them together somewhere in the middle?
PERLE: If the question is should we continue to try to find a formula for a peaceful resolution of this dispute, of course, the answer is yes. What I'm suggesting to you is that there's a cultural and political dimension of this that has to be brought into the equation and, up until now, has not been brought into the equation. That is to say any plan that has a prayer of success has to include an end to teaching seven-year-olds about holy war.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BUCHANAN: That was my conversation earlier with former assistant secretary of defense Richard Perle.
Joining us now to get to the heart of the matter here is Lawrence Korb, another former assistant secretary of defense in the Reagan administration; Rich Lowry, an editor at “National Review” who recently wrote a cover story describing our Saudi allies as “desert rats”; and Bob Lieber, professor of foreign affairs at Georgetown University. Welcome to MAKING SENSE, gentlemen.
Let me go to Rich Lowry first, and let's go around the table pretty rapidly here and we're going to come back after a break. But take the question, look, what the Saudis did when they offered to make peace with the Israelis and they offered peace to the Israelis, they did what Sadat did with his offer, in which cost him his life. So even if this is an utopian and an altruist scheme which the Israelis can't accept in totality, isn't it something of a breakthrough and something of an opening with which we can work? Rich?
RICH LOWRY, EDITOR, “NATIONAL REVIEW”: No, Pat, I don't think it's a breakthrough at all. It is just the maximalist Arab demand with a bow tied around it and called a peace plan. And it's insane to think Israel would retreat to borders that no Israeli prime minister or chief of staff has ever considered defensible and do it on the promise of basically a diplomatic recognition which can be withdrawn the next day from the Saudis and the other Arab states. And the fact is Israel does not have a decent partner for peace in Yasser Arafat, who has given us 16 months of violence and terror.
BUCHANAN: All right. Let's go. Larry Korb, look, it is a maximalist offer, if you will. You know, Israel goes back to 1967 in return for recognition. But is there anything here?
LAWRENCE KORB, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Oh, I think so because the Saudis are the spiritual head of the Arab world and the fact that they're willing to say that Israel has a right to exist, I think is very significant. Had they said that back when President Clinton was negotiating with Barak and Arafat back at Camp David, I think Arafat would have had the political wherewithal to accept that particular deal.
So, I think it is a good — it's not the end of the process, but I do think it's very significant and it's also significant that he said it when Arafat was unable or unwilling to come to the summit. A lot of people though that he wouldn't — they wouldn't do it then.
BUCHANAN: All right. Bob Lieber, is there not something here?
ROBERT LIEBER, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Well, it's not the admirable Anwar Sadat, but on the other hand, it's not the loathsome Yasser Arafat either. It's got provisions which are deal breakers, especially refugees and the demand for “all the territories” which U.N. resolution 242 does not require.
But even though it is not a fleshed-out plan, even though it is severely limited and it has very grave problems, the fact is that merely coming from the Saudis, who are the bastion of orthodoxy in the Arab world, they and the Egyptians are the heavies. And the fact that the Saudi leader was willing to speak to the Israelis directly about peace, that by itself is an important, symbolic factor, as symbolic in importance to the Arab world even more so than to the Israelis.
BUCHANAN: Well, it seems to me it does something for it that the Hamas rejected it, and whoever's writing in the name of Osama bin Laden rejected it and Libya rejected it. So, I think there's some merit to it.
But, gentlemen, stay right there. We're going to have more with our guests in a minute, including the most famous since Al and Tipper smooched at the Democratic convention. Are the Saudis making eyes at the Iraqis in Beirut? And what does that mean for Mr. Bush's plans for “regime change in Baghdad?”
And later, the sex scandal gripping the Catholic church this holy week. I'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BUCHANAN: Welcome back.
We're in the middle of holy week and that crisis in the American Catholic church seems to be deepening and spreading. We'll debate that in the next half hour.
But first, back to the Saudi peace proposal. Still with us, Larry Korb, Rich Lowry and Robert Lieber. Let me go back again to Rich Lowry on this. Look, I mean, everybody's appalled by what happened at Netanya, although my view is Hamas did it. Hamas claimed credit for it. Arafat condemned it. He probably had nothing to do with it. I don't think he could have stopped it.
But if the bottom line, is it not the Israeli presence on the West Bank, the Israeli settlements, the Israeli occupation that is the cause of the war that incites the terrorists, unjustified as they are?
LOWRY: Pat, I can't believe that you are in any way making excuses for terrorism. And the fact is if a Mexican suicide bombers were sneaking into Arizona or southern California and blowing up innocent Americans, I have an inkling that you would hold Vincente Fox responsible for that. And the fact is that it's not just Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but groups allied and connected to Yasser Arafat's own faction of the PLO have been involved in many of these attacks this year.
BUCHANAN: All right. But (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
LOWRY: And Arafat is using terrorism because he thinks it works.
BUCHANAN: I know he does. That's why he's using it. But that's what they did to the American Marines in Beirut and what they did to our embassy in Beirut was an outrage and a criminal action and we should have gone after them and we did go after them. But the reason the Americans were attacked is because we were there. Now, Larry Korb, what do you think is the fundamental cause of this conflict and what, if anything, can be done really to terminate it, or is it, as a friend of mine said, a terminal conflict in which the stronger or the one with the greatest resolve and determination is going to win it?
KORB: Well, the United States has to get more deeply involved. This administration made a terrible mistake in backing off from getting involved in this part of the world. And even now, General Zinni is a swell fella, but he's retired. He's not part of this administration. It's no accident that secretaries of state like Kissinger and Schultz spent an awful lot of time in that part of the world. And that's really what's got to happen.
We were very close at the end of the Clinton administration and rather than picking up on it, we backed off and let the nature take its course and this is what's happened. I think Rich is right. Arafat shares a lot of the blame because he was offered a pretty good deal by Barak and he should have come up with a counteroffer.
LOWRY: You have to draw the line somewhere. And at some point, you have to say this guy is a terrorist.
KORB: I didn't interrupt you. I didn't interrupt you, Rich. Let me finish, OK.
BUCHANAN: Let him finish. We'll go to Mr. Lieber next. Go ahead.
KORB: OK. I mean, Arafat bears a lot of the blame for this because he had a pretty good deal on the table and he should have come up with a counteroffer. I think he has unleashed forces over which he has no control anymore.
BUCHANAN: Larry, let me follow up on that. Now, look, the Barak offer, everybody agrees went further than anything and Arafat appeared to brush it off the table. Should the Israelis put forward something like that again or should they sweep it off the table because Sharon ran and won on a platform of rejecting that?
KORB: Well, I think he did because of the violence that started the second intifada. I think he can't do that now, but eventually we know what it's going to look like. There is going to be a separate Palestinian state. The Arabs are going to recognize the right of Israel to exist and the borders will be pretty close to the plan that Barak laid down.
BUCHANAN: All right. Let me go to Professor Lieber. Go ahead.
LIEBER: Well, the problem has been Arafat. He had a deal on the table which would have met the aspirations of the Palestinians. He rejected it. And the reason he rejected it is that he has not been willing to make peace with Israel. And it is not about a small, tactical point. It is about what the Palestinian — the PLO used to call the policy of stages, that is they'll take what they can get at the negotiating table, but they're determined ultimately to do away with Israel. That's why issues such as the “right of return of refugees” are deal busters because they imply an unwillingness to accept a real peace with Israel.
LOWRY: Absolutely correct.
BUCHANAN: All right, but let me get into this. Look, there's going to eventually — I think Larry Korb is right. If there's going to be a peace, there's going to be a Palestinian state. It's going to be on the West Bank. It's probably going to have a capital, a Vatican city in Arab East Jerusalem, even if the city is not going to be divided again. The Muslims get the holy places and the Israelis are going to get almost all of the Golan Heights as Barak was about to do. I mean, what is it that prevents — let's ask Professor Lieber — what prevents our move in there?
LIEBER: What prevents this happening is the unwillingness of Arafat and, for that matter, the Syrian leadership to live in peace with Israel. You're absolutely right in referring to what the likely outlines of a settlement will be. But when or if they ever get there will depend on a profound change on the part of the Palestinian Authority, Arafat, and the groups surround him, which, by the way, are responsible for a fair number of the suicide bombings including the so-called Al Aqsa Brigade.
BUCHANAN: All right. Let's go to Rich Lowry. Rich, what do you think — what plan do you think Sharon should put on the table if any to Arafat or should he just go in as Netanyahu urges him and kick him off the West Bank and out of Gaza?
LOWRY: Well, this is the real problem, Pat, is that he can't decide. And it's some combination of the domestic politics and Israel and holding him back and the U.S. has been holding him back. I think we should give him a free hand. I think Arafat has basically established his terrorist credentials now to anyone's satisfaction and it should be Sharon's decision about whether it's better to chase that regime out of the West Bank or try to leave it. But I don't think just taking tanks to Arafat's headquarters and parking them outside serves much purpose. It serves — it makes Arafat a victim without really making him hurt in any real sense.
BUCHANAN: I agree 100 percent with that. But, look, he clearly is unwilling to do what Netanyahu suggests, which is simply kick him out of the West Bank. And if he is not going to do that, I mean, what's his alternative? He promised peace and security and he clearly hasn't delivered.
LOWRY: Yes. Well, yes, he's, in some sense, stuck until he makes some fundamental choice. But, you know, Pat, I also agree that the basic outlines of the deal that you laid out are correct. You know, that's common sense. But Israel cannot make peace with a terrorist Palestinian state and the fact, Pat, is that Palestinian society is convulsed in this orgy of suicide murders. Every significant faction in Palestinian politics is competing over who can blow up the most Israelis.
BUCHANAN: All right. But before Ariel Sharon went stomping around the temple mount with a thousand armed guards, there were no terrorists incidents, even after the collapse of Camp David and before that. I agree with you, now the situation is totally inflamed. You've now got more people involved in terrorists. You've got guys with eight kids going out with bombs around them. You've got 47 terrorist attacks. But, you know, there's no — going forward, the Sharon route, isn't working.
LOWRY: Well, Pat, to make one last point then I'll stop filibustering, you mentioned when our barracks were blown up in Lebanon. What did we ultimately do? We cut and we ran. What did Israel do?
BUCHANAN: Well, we didn't belong in there. We didn't belong in Lebanon.
LOWRY: Let me finish the point. What did Israel do in May 2000 in southern Lebanon? They cut and ran. And this makes the terrorists think they can win.
BUCHANAN: But, Rich, there's a point here. Israel maybe didn't belong in Lebanon and maybe we didn't belong in Lebanon. But, Larry Korb, go ahead.
KORB: Well, I think the fact of the matter is that Israel needs a strategy, a long-term strategy. And the strategy that Sharon has, whether he went into Beirut back when we were in government, or, you know, some of these real hard incursions now is not going to work for Israel in the long run. We all want Israel to be a safe, secure state. But they have got the wrong strategy now. Sharon is in a no-win position. If he moves too far one way, he loses part of his cabinet. If he moves too far the other way, he loses part of his cabinet.
BUCHANAN: Larry, let me ask you a question based on demography. In my little book “Death of the West”, I studied the demographics. There are 4.2 million Palestinians under Israeli rule now in Israel, West Bank, Gaza. That will be 9 million in 2025 and 15 million in 2050 with 10 more million Palestinians in Jordan; 25 million Palestinians, 7.5 million Israeli Jews. I mean, don't the Israelis have to settle?
KORB: Well, of course, they have to settle because if they don't, they'll end up just killing each other ad infinitum and this is not really what they want. One of problems you have is the casualty ratios are becoming much closer than they were and in the long-term, this will be self-defeating for the Israelis.
BUCHANAN: Professor Lieber, what do you think the Israelis ought to do now?
LIEBER: Well, it's hard to say. Sharon is pulled apart in a way. But I think the United States would do better to put more pressure on Arafat and to put pressure on the Europeans who, along with us, are his principle sources of funding, and to put pressure on our Arab friends to lean on Arafat as well. Unless there's a change there, nothing can move.
And there's one more point. There's a lot of talk about a cycle of violence, which implies mirror imaging as though each side were equally responsible. But it's not the case. You can't compare people who carry out premeditated suicide murders, basically mass murder of innocent civilians, with the casualties that occur in efforts to defend against and root out the terrorists.
BUCHANAN: I agree, Professor Lieber, but, look, there is no moral equivalence between direct murder and collateral damage. But that is a tough case to make to some Palestinian father whose kid has just been shot because a bullet went through the wall.
LIEBER: Well, it is not the point. The reason those Palestinian kids die is Yasser Arafat and the steady diet of brutal incitement and propaganda that has been fed to the Palestinian population on the West Bank and Gaza ever since the Palestinian Authority took over responsibility in those areas. And let me add that it isn't the Israelis who govern most of the Palestinians. They're under the tender mercies of the P.A., not of the IDF.
BUCHANAN: OK. Thank you, gentlemen.
Next, do homosexuals have any place in Catholic seminaries or in the priesthood because they're there? We'll debate that topic and a news update on what's going on in the Middle East. You're watching MSNBC, the best news on cable.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLT: Good evening, everyone. I'm Lester Holt at MSNBC world headquarters. We'll return to MAKING SENSE in a moment. But first, the latest developments out of the Middle East. Less than 12 hours after Yasser Arafat said he was ready for an immediate and unconditional cease-fire, Israeli tanks are literally at his doorstep in Ramallah tonight.
There has been gun fire, five Palestinian police officers have been hurt. Also, the Israeli cabinet, led by Ariel Sharon, continue to meet in a marathon session, deciding whether to strike back with a massive attack against Palestinian targets in retaliation for yesterday's suicide bombing that killed at least 20 people.
MSNBC's Dana Lewis on the scene now in Ramallah where these tanks have moved into position. What's the latest, Dana?
LEWIS: Lester, I'm in the center of Ramallah and just over my headquarters, about five minutes' drive from me is Yasser Arafat's headquarters and for the last several hours, I can tell you I've been hearing heavy, heavy machine gun fire coming in that direction and at times, I have heard tank fire, probably 12 to 15 different tank shots being fired, echoing across the city this morning.
Just down the road from us now, an armored personnel carrier from the Israeli army has moved in. Originally, we were told that the army moved in from four different areas from the north and from the south into Ramallah. We have two separate reports, sources telling us that those tanks are around Yasser Arafat's headquarters, some describing them as about half a block to a block away.
Right now, we have no indications that they have entered the compound. It seems that they are just outside. And even as I'm speaking to you now, I can still hear some tank fire coming. The Israeli army is confirming that they have launched action not only targeted action here in Ramallah, but across the West Bank. So, they have entered some other cities. I'm just wondering if you're able to hear any of that.
HOLT: No, we can't pick it up.
LEWIS: A lot of shelling — OK, Lester. A lot of shelling coming from that area. As I say, the army has entered not only Ramallah, but they've gone into other areas across the West Bank. The government continues to meet. We're told now they have been in there for more than 6 1/2 hours meeting, that their options are that they may outlaw the Palestinian Authority.
That is something that is being debated. That mean they would not negotiate with the Palestinian authority anymore, they wouldn't meet with them and that may arrest some of their members and they are also reportedly debating whether to put Yasser Arafat into exile and Palestinian sources here, people I've been meeting with in the last 24 hours say if that were to happen, all hell would break loose all across the West Bank. By the sounds of it over my shoulder, that is already happening.
HOLT: Dana, if you could put it into perspective for us, it's not the first time tanks have moved on Ramallah, given the reports of the proximity of the tanks to Arafat's headquarters, how would you compare this to earlier forays by Israeli forces?
LEWIS: Certainly we have never had any indication they were going to threaten Yasser Arafat himself. They moved into Ramallah two weeks ago, 150 tanks or so because they were moving on terrorist organizations to go in and take out some of the bomb-making equipment that they said were connected to some of these groups, to Hamas, to the Islamic jihad, to the Al Aqsa brigade, Fattah group, but this is something different.
This is said to be a major operation all across the West Bank right now. As you can see, the sun is just coming up, so as the day unfolds here, we will begin to see how big this operation is. But it seems much bigger than the last one and, of course, heavy, heavy machine gun fire there, Lester. Of course, this one seems that it may be focusing on the actual headquarters of Yasser Arafat. And that is where that fire is coming from right now in the direction of that. So, that would be a major, major development in this conflict.
HOLT: And this comes at a time, the day that Yasser Arafat said he's ready for peace. The initial Israeli reaction to that was very, very skeptical earlier this afternoon.
LEWIS: I was in his news conference in his compound tonight and I asked Yasser Arafat why don't you call on your people to stop shooting if you're serious about a cease-fire? He said you haven't heard me. We are calling for a cease-fire and we are ready to implement one.
Then he also said a little later that he is ready to implement a cease-fire, based on the Tenet agreement. That is the agreement that was negotiated by CIA director George Tenet last fall. It does not take into account the fact that U.S. envoy Anthony Zinni has been on the ground and he has brought in new proposals from the Israelis and the Palestinians so-called bridging proposals to try and get the cease-fire implemented.
And Arafat essentially said tonight, yes, we'll go ahead with the cease-fire, but not any of these new proposals, just the old cease-fire agreement and that is not acceptable to Israel right now, and that is the snag and it is a major snag.
HOLT: MSNBC's Dana Lewis, in the thick of it in Ramallah. Dana, thank you so much. We want to remind folk that we are expecting that cabinet meeting, led by Ariel Sharon to wrap up fairly shortly. We're told that he will address reporters when it is over.
MSNBC will carry his remarks live. Stay tuned for that. That's the very latest from MSNBC world headquarters. I'm Lester Holt. I want to send you back now to ALAN KEYES IS MAKING SENSE with guest host tonight Pat Buchanan.
BUCHANAN: Thanks, Lester. Welcome back to MAKING SENSE. I'm Pat Buchanan sitting in for Alan Keyes. We're going to turn now to that scandal in the Catholic church, the homosexual pedophile scandal and the crisis of authority in the Catholic church now. It's been boiling over for months, especially the last couple of weeks.
Joining us is Mary Louise Cervone, the national president of Dignity U.S.A., the nation's largest lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender catholic organization. Also with us is Deal Hudson, editor and publisher of “Crisis Magazine,” a conservative Catholic issues publication.
Welcome to MAKING SENSE. Mary Louise, let me start with you. I believe the Pope's authority today over in the Vatican said that homosexuals really don't belong, whether they're out of the closet or practicing or non-practicing, simply the orientation. They do not belong in Catholic seminaries and they do not belong in the Catholic priesthood.
Now, given that 90 percent of the abuses that we've heard about are not pedophiles, those are the ones involving children, but they're involving sort of teenagers and seminarians and priests, doesn't this make common sense?
MARY LOUISE CERVONE, DIGNITY U.S.: Pat, first of all, I don't know that the number is 90 percent and, in fact, the age of the child is irrelevant. What we're very concerned about is that children have been abused. Individual priests are guilty of committing acts of sexual violence against children regardless of their age. These acts — these acts have no basis in the Catholic church, in our faith. As far as gay priests, any link to homosexuality, homosexual priests and pedophilia is simply wrong. There are gay priests, there are straight priests...
BUCHANAN: Mary, look. Everyone agrees that any priest that has been involved with someone who is under 12 years old, under 13 years old is a criminal. He should have been reported to police. He should have been removed from the priesthood. He should have been thrown out of the archdiocese.
The cardinals archbishop's failed to do that. Some bishops moved them around and that is wrong, and we'll talk about that crisis of the authority, the bishops responsible. We're also talking about seminarians, priests involved with boys, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, in some cases crimes, but in other cases, if you are dealing with 17, 18 years old, 16 years old, they may not be crimes, you're dealing with an awful scandal, and it is prevalent because of the homosexual network in the Catholic church.
Doesn't this suggest the boy scouts are right when they keep the homosexuals away from boy scouts, cub scouts, eagle scouts, any of them?
CERVONE: No, Pat. Because the kind of abuse that we're talking about is an abuse of power and an abuse of sacred trust. In no way are these acts of sexual violence, whether they are committed against 12-year-olds or 4-year-olds or 16-year-olds, and, in fact, we're not hearing about the acts of violence committed against girls. We're really focusing, media attention is focused on boys. Fine. Go with that.
These acts of violence are abuses of power and trust. Healthy relationships whether they are heterosexual or homosexual, all contain the component of physical sex.
BUCHANAN: All right. Let me bring Deal Hudson into this. Neil, what is your take on what you just heard?
DEAL HUDSON, “CRISIS MAGAZINE”: Well, I think she's got it entirely wrong. It's clearly the case, as you say, that there is a homosexual subculture in the Catholic church, which accounts for the big numbers we're seeing in sexual abuse of children by priests. And it surely does matter the age of the child involved, because the younger the child the more the child is really a victim, the more the child is really being preyed upon by an adult. And whenever there is sexual abuse anywhere between an adult and a child, there is a power relation. You don't have to be a priest to have a power over a child. Any adult in any occupation or no occupation has power over a child.
BUCHANAN: Let me ask you this, is it your judgment, Deal, that the homosexuals who are in the seminaries and the priesthood have a greater proclivity to abuse children, whether they're subteens or teenagers, than heterosexual priests do? And is that the scandal in the church? And is the Vatican right when its spokesman says that homosexuals, even with their orientation ought not to be in the seminaries and ought not to be ordained?
HUDSON: Well, the first part of your question, the answer is yes because homosexuals have three times greater likelihood to be pedophiles than heterosexuals. So, the answer is yes, just statistically. The answer to your second question is that the church has long taught in various ways that homosexuals should be very closely screened, if not all together barred from the priesthood.
As you know, cannon 1040 says that anyone with a psychic disorder of any type should not be ordained. The cannon does not go on to say that homosexuality is explicitly one of those disorders, but it should be discussed and the standard, the bar has to be raised in the future to keep this number of homosexuals from entering the priesthood. But remember one thing, Pat, and I'm sure you'll agree with me. We don't want to start a witch hunt for homosexuals in the priesthood, and there surely are among 46,000 priests in the United States celibate homosexual priests serving the church in wonderful ways.
BUCHANAN: Mary and Deal, stay right there. We'll have more on the crisis of Catholicism. After this, we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BUCHANAN: Welcome back. We're talking about that crisis in the Roman Catholic Church with Mary Louise Cervone of the homosexual group, Dignity U.S.A. And Deal Hudson of “Crisis” magazine, a Catholic magazine.
Mary Louise, what deal was saying was that there was a far greater proclivity, I believe he said 3-1 on the part of homosexuals, if you will, to abuse teenagers and boys than there is heterosexuals. Now, a, do you believe that's true and, second, if it is true is it not simple common sense that the Catholic Church ought to do what the boy scouts do, which is say look, they may be good folks, but we have a rule against homosexuals as scout masters?
CERVONE: Well, Pat, I could have saved you the second half of the question because the answer to the first part of the question is no. I don't believe there's any credible science that would hold that theory out. And in fact, those kinds of statements are very inflammatory in this situation.
The real crisis in the church is that the Catholic Church has chosen to scapegoat gay priests, rather than take responsibility for its own actions and inactions, and that has opened the door to this feeding frenzy of —
BUCHANAN: You say scapegoat, gay priests. Isn't the problem that they have not really removed the gay priests from the ranks and removed them from the flock?
CERVONE: No.
BUCHANAN: I mean, many...
CERVONE: No.
BUCHANAN: ... of these were wolves preying on the lamb.
CERVONE: No, Pat, no. Because the gay priests have been scapegoated by the Catholic Church so as the church to avoid taking responsibility for itself. First of all, we don't know, we don't know that every predator or that any predator was a gay priest. What we do know as fact is that children of various ages have been abused sexually.
BUCHANAN: Let me go to Deal. Deal, look, if you've got a gay priest or a priest preying on teenage boys, he is a homosexual, is he not by definition?
HUDSON: Absolutely by definition. And of course —
BUCHANAN: And 90 percent of the cases or 85 percent of the cases?
HUDSON: That is correct.
CERVONE: Now, you could split the hair and the technical meaning of the word homosexual. What is important for people to understand is that within relationships, whether it is gay or straight, the sexual component is whole, it is healthy, it is mutual, it is respectful of the other.
HUDSON: Are you saying that pedophilia is good — are you saying that pedophilia is good for the child?
CERVONE: No.
HUDSON: It is beneficial to the child?
CERVONE: No. I'm saying exactly the opposite. What I'm saying is exactly the opposite. The acts, the sexual acts that have been perpetrated against children in the Catholic church are not whole. They are not healthy. They are criminal. They are morally reprehensible and...
HUDSON: You know what? I agree with you. We totally agree with you. And it's not a matter of scapegoating any group of priests, homosexuals or not, it is a matter of pointing to the perpetrators and punishing them.
BUCHANAN: All right. Let me — let me pick up on that, Deal.
CERVONE: Then point to the perpetrators, not to gay priests.
BUCHANAN: All right. Let me pick up on the authority question. Deal, look, let's take the question of Cardinal Bernard Law, who quite obviously, covered up for a priest, more than that, moved this priest around, who was a real pedophile, from parish to parish, and they kept this quiet. How do you maintain your moral authority when the shepherd, in effect, has covered up the tracks of the wolf?
HUDSON: Well, it's hard. But, you know, Cardinal Law has...
BUCHANAN: Has a fine pro-life record. I know that.
HUDSON: He's a very distinguished man and very distinguished priest, and he's going through a very rough time and I know that you and other Catholic leaders have called for his resignation. And I really wonder, you know, where that's going to get us. I mean, we're looking for...
BUCHANAN: Well, let me tell you...
HUDSON: ... some kind of symbolic scout to be taken.
BUCHANAN: Look, it's not a scalp. I also called for the resignation of someone I was far closer to than Cardinal Law, and that's Richard Nixon as president of the United States. It seems to me when your moral authority is gone, that you can't really lead an archdiocese like this. But, look, these bishops are so high, isn't this a matter for the pope?
HUDSON: It certainly is. I mean, it's not really an issue of resignation. It's really an issue of the pope to decide whether he wants this bishop or that cardinal to remain in his chair. And it seems to me that the trouble with calling for one person's resignation, if you look around the country, there are lots of bishops who have not really overseen these cases very well. As you know, we did a cover story in “Crisis” in October on the price of pedophilia, even before the “Boston Globe” got on it. And we were looking at $1 billion, we were projecting $1 billion in pay outs.
BUCHANAN: That's low. That's mighty low. Well, listen, Deal Hudson, Mary Louise, thank you very much.
Up next, an update on the Middle East. Things are developing quickly there. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BUCHANAN: Let's go to MSNBC headquarters for an update on the situation in Israel.
LESTER HOLT, MSNBC ANCHOR: And more late developments, Pat. Word crossing the Reuters wires now, Reuters citing a Palestinian official saying Israeli bulldozers are demolishing a fence around Yasser Arafat's compound in Ramallah right now.
As we've been reporting over the last hour, Israeli tanks have moved in, surrounded Yasser Arafat's compound, his office, and according to this report now, are demolishing the fence around the compound. While this is going on, the Israeli cabinet is meeting for more than six hours now, it's approaching 6:00 in the morning right now in Israel. They have been discussing throughout the night how to respond to the suicide attacks and another attack that claimed three lives in an Israeli settlement. One option was a massive retaliatory offensive. We haven't received word from that. Ariel Sharon is expected to come out and address reporters as soon as that marathon cabinet meeting ends. MSNBC will carry it for you live.
That's the very latest from our world headquarters now. I'm Lester Holt. Let's send it back now to Pat.
BUCHANAN: Thanks, Lester. Stay tuned to MSNBC for the latest on the Middle East crisis. Alan will be back on Monday. I'm Pat Buchanan. Have a happy Easter and a wonderful Passover.
Twenty-four hours after that horrific Passover massacre in the beach city of Netanya in Israel by Palestinian suicide bomber, Yasser Arafat offered an unconditional cease-fire. But it may be too late. There's talk tonight of an all-out Israeli assault to smash the Palestinians once and for all. And reports tonight of Israeli tanks moving towards Ramallah, the headquarters of Yasser Arafat himself.
Let's go to MSNBC world headquarters for the latest on the developing crisis in the Middle East — Lester.
LESTER HOLT, NBC ANCHOR: And good evening, everyone. I'm Lester Holt.
It's a little after 5:00 in the morning in Israel right now. The Israeli cabinet, Ariel Sharon meeting into the wee hours of the morning, still reportedly meeting, debating whether to launch an all-out offensive against Palestinian militants in response to yesterday's suicide bombing. At the same time, Israeli tanks on the roll now in Ramallah. There have been reports of gun fire.
That's where MSNBC's Dana Lewis is now. Dana, what have you observed tonight?
DANA LEWIS, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Lester. We're actually in the center of Ramallah in front of a window here because it's too dangerous to be on the roof. I can tell you that for the last hour now, I have heard a lot of gun fire coming to the south of me, and that's where that window is looking, towards the headquarters of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Heavy machine gun fire, I have heard myself, I have also heard at least a 15 to 20 blasts that sounded like tank fire. We have been talking to people both inside the compound and around the compound of Yasser Arafat's headquarters in the south of Ramallah, one person inside the headquarters is telling us that there are tanks that are moving around the headquarters and we have that independently confirmed from somebody on the outside who we spoke with by phone, who said that the tanks are about 300 meters from Yasser Arafat's headquarters.
The Israeli army has confirmed that they have a targeted operation under way in Ramallah. Of course, not naming that target, but it would appear to be either the actual headquarters of Yasser Arafat right now, or at least some sort of operation to surround the headquarters, which is taking place, we have heard ambulances as well, and reports that at least 10 Palestinians have been wounded so far — Lester.
HOLT: Dana, in anticipation of this sort of offensive, Yasser Arafat had called or reportedly had begun rounding up or arresting militants. Were you able to observe any of that and confirm that the Palestinian authorities are making those moves?
LEWIS: Could not confirm that and we actually spoke — I sat down with a member of Hamas here in Ramallah today. He is one of the political leaders of Hamas. I asked him, have any of your members been arrested today and he said he didn't know of any that had been arrested at that time.
I also met tonight personally with Yasser Arafat's preventive security chief, Jabril Rugib (ph) here, and he told us that they are waiting for the cease-fire talks to continue. But Yasser Arafat — and I was in his news conference, did not call for an unconditional cease-fire tonight. He called for a cease-fire under the Tenet plan, which means that he would not go along with any of these so-called bridging amendments that U.S. Envoy Anthony Zinni has been proposing here. The Palestinians basically saying that they would go ahead with the old cease-fire plan, but they wouldn't go ahead with any of the proposed amendments that have been on the table for the last two weeks — Lester.
HOLT: Now, as far as these meetings, cabinet meetings going on now with the government, is there still anticipation that a greater offensive is to come or is what you're seeing in Ramallah appear to be it for now?
LEWIS: Well, if it's Yasser Arafat's headquarters that they're moving on, they don't have to do much more than that. That is a major event here and Palestinian leaders are telling us that if that were to happen, all hell would break loose. What do they intend to do in the headquarters? Are they going to arrest Arafat, push him out of the country? That's the speculation here by many of the Palestinians and the security forces here. There is great concern that the Israelis have made a decision to bring down the Palestinian Authority. That is a terrific, tremendous turning point in this on-going conflict, and there's probably no turning back from that.
HOLT: MSNBC's Dana Lewis reporting from Ramallah. Dana, thanks very much. And again, at last report we had Ariel Sharon and his cabinet still huddled in those meetings a little after 5:00 in the morning. Sharon is expected to come out and talk to reporters at the conclusion of those meetings. We'll monitoring that and bring it to you when it happens.
For now, that's the latest from MSNBC World Headquarters. I'm Lester Holt. Now back to ALAN KEYES IS MAKING SENSE with Pat Buchanan tonight.
BUCHANAN: Thanks, Lester. We'll take another look at the Israeli retaliation during this half-hour, as well as the Arab summit in Beirut, which ended today with formal approval of that Saudi peace plan, seemingly directed more at the Israeli people than at Ariel Sharon's regime. Here are the highlights: In return for peace, Israel must, one, withdraw to her 1967 borders, including getting off the Golan Heights entirely. Two, accept a sovereign, independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza with East Jerusalem as its capital. And, three, Israel must look for a “just solution” to the Palestinians' right of return.
Is this Palestinian — or is this Saudi plan really a historic breakthrough or are we looking at just another utopian scheme that will be forgotten in a fortnight?
Up front tonight, Richard Pearl, former assistant secretary of defense under Ronald Reagan. Earlier, I asked him about the Arafat situation and the Saudi plan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD PEARL, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: There had been many cease-fires and even more promises, and the cease-fires have broken down, and violence has continued. The promises have been broken. It's hard to be anything other than discouraged at the pattern that has developed of suicide bombing used as a political instrument.
BUCHANAN: Well, these are atrocities, no question about it. But each time, in this example, up in Netanya, for example, Hamas took credit for it. Hamas has said it rejects what's going on in Beirut in terms of a peace plan. Arafat says he condemns what happened in Netanya and Arafat says he will accept the peace plan, and yet the Israelis go after Arafat rather than blaming Hamas. Why is that?
PEARL: Because Arafat controls the territory from which these attacks originate. The attacks don't originate in Lebanon where Hamas has headquarters. They don't originate in Tehran where the Iranians support terrorism. They originate in the West Bank. And it is the Israeli view that if Arafat wished to stopped the violence, he's in a position to do so. And if he's not in a position to stop the violence, then what is the point of negotiating with Arafat?
BUCHANAN: Well, what — let me ask you, what is your conclusion as to that? Is Arafat, does he not want the violence and the atrocities, and the suicide bombing to stop or does he not have the ability to do it now, in part because Israelis have pretty much smashed his infrastructure, he's not even paying his policemen, he's locked up in Ramallah, his headquarters have been smashed. And how can he stop these terrorist attacks if the Israelis, who have heavily infiltrated the West Bank and Gaza, they're unable to stop these massacres of their own citizens. How does Arafat do it?
PEARL: Well, sadly, I've come to the conclusion, I don't know what others think, that Arafat rather likes the combination of suicide bombing that he believes is driving the Israelis into the arms of some compromise, perhaps under pressure from the United States, and the denial of responsibility for suicide bombing at the same time. The best of both worlds. There's a long history of Arafat disassociating himself publicly from acts of terror, while working hand in glove with terrorists. And let me remind you of the lies he told about the Kareem A, the shipment of —
BUCHANAN: Iranian arms.
PEARL: Of Iranian arms. He said he knew nothing about it. Well, that's obviously a lie. He knew all about it.
BUCHANAN: All right. Now let's go up to Beirut or at least go back to Beirut as of yesterday. The Saudis apparently have offered a peace plan, which almost all the Arab countries have signed on to. Hamas has rejected it. I think Qadhafi has rejected it. But he's offered, in effect, peace to the Israelis and normalization of relations if they will give up everything they took in the six-day war in 1967.
While this is far advanced from the Barak plan, which gave up about 95 percent of the West Bank, and offered the Palestinians part of Jerusalem, is there not here at least something to work with?
PEARL: Well, in all of these diplomatic formulas, the details turn out to be very important. But beyond the diplomacy, and we've had decades of diplomacy surrounding these issues, there is, it seems to me, Pat, a much more fundamental question that is deep in the culture, the history, the psychology, and the politics of this dispute.
If you watch Palestinian television tonight, you will see the Palestinian Tom Brokaw reading the news. And behind him is a map. There's no Israel on that map. For the Palestinians, Israel doesn't exist. If you go to a grade school in the Palestinian Authority, you are likely to see children 6 and 7 and 8 years old, marching with wooden rifles —
BUCHANAN: But you know —
PEARL: Calling for jihad.
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: But, Richard, they had that, I'm sure, the same maps of all of Palestine, colored red as one country in Cairo. But the Egyptians have agreed to recognize Israel. The Jordanians have agreed to recognize Israel. The Saudis have offered a plan. Every Arab nation has signed on to it, except the rejectionists, the altruists, who have said no.
I mean, isn't it worth trying? I mean, if the alternative is Netanyas and the alternative is Ramallahs, you know, forever on end, I mean, where are we going? Doesn't there have to be some effort at some point where Sharon says this is my bottom line and the Arabs say this is my bottom line and the Americans try to pull them together somewhere in the middle?
PERLE: If the question is should we continue to try to find a formula for a peaceful resolution of this dispute, of course, the answer is yes. What I'm suggesting to you is that there's a cultural and political dimension of this that has to be brought into the equation and, up until now, has not been brought into the equation. That is to say any plan that has a prayer of success has to include an end to teaching seven-year-olds about holy war.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BUCHANAN: That was my conversation earlier with former assistant secretary of defense Richard Perle.
Joining us now to get to the heart of the matter here is Lawrence Korb, another former assistant secretary of defense in the Reagan administration; Rich Lowry, an editor at “National Review” who recently wrote a cover story describing our Saudi allies as “desert rats”; and Bob Lieber, professor of foreign affairs at Georgetown University. Welcome to MAKING SENSE, gentlemen.
Let me go to Rich Lowry first, and let's go around the table pretty rapidly here and we're going to come back after a break. But take the question, look, what the Saudis did when they offered to make peace with the Israelis and they offered peace to the Israelis, they did what Sadat did with his offer, in which cost him his life. So even if this is an utopian and an altruist scheme which the Israelis can't accept in totality, isn't it something of a breakthrough and something of an opening with which we can work? Rich?
RICH LOWRY, EDITOR, “NATIONAL REVIEW”: No, Pat, I don't think it's a breakthrough at all. It is just the maximalist Arab demand with a bow tied around it and called a peace plan. And it's insane to think Israel would retreat to borders that no Israeli prime minister or chief of staff has ever considered defensible and do it on the promise of basically a diplomatic recognition which can be withdrawn the next day from the Saudis and the other Arab states. And the fact is Israel does not have a decent partner for peace in Yasser Arafat, who has given us 16 months of violence and terror.
BUCHANAN: All right. Let's go. Larry Korb, look, it is a maximalist offer, if you will. You know, Israel goes back to 1967 in return for recognition. But is there anything here?
LAWRENCE KORB, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Oh, I think so because the Saudis are the spiritual head of the Arab world and the fact that they're willing to say that Israel has a right to exist, I think is very significant. Had they said that back when President Clinton was negotiating with Barak and Arafat back at Camp David, I think Arafat would have had the political wherewithal to accept that particular deal.
So, I think it is a good — it's not the end of the process, but I do think it's very significant and it's also significant that he said it when Arafat was unable or unwilling to come to the summit. A lot of people though that he wouldn't — they wouldn't do it then.
BUCHANAN: All right. Bob Lieber, is there not something here?
ROBERT LIEBER, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Well, it's not the admirable Anwar Sadat, but on the other hand, it's not the loathsome Yasser Arafat either. It's got provisions which are deal breakers, especially refugees and the demand for “all the territories” which U.N. resolution 242 does not require.
But even though it is not a fleshed-out plan, even though it is severely limited and it has very grave problems, the fact is that merely coming from the Saudis, who are the bastion of orthodoxy in the Arab world, they and the Egyptians are the heavies. And the fact that the Saudi leader was willing to speak to the Israelis directly about peace, that by itself is an important, symbolic factor, as symbolic in importance to the Arab world even more so than to the Israelis.
BUCHANAN: Well, it seems to me it does something for it that the Hamas rejected it, and whoever's writing in the name of Osama bin Laden rejected it and Libya rejected it. So, I think there's some merit to it.
But, gentlemen, stay right there. We're going to have more with our guests in a minute, including the most famous since Al and Tipper smooched at the Democratic convention. Are the Saudis making eyes at the Iraqis in Beirut? And what does that mean for Mr. Bush's plans for “regime change in Baghdad?”
And later, the sex scandal gripping the Catholic church this holy week. I'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BUCHANAN: Welcome back.
We're in the middle of holy week and that crisis in the American Catholic church seems to be deepening and spreading. We'll debate that in the next half hour.
But first, back to the Saudi peace proposal. Still with us, Larry Korb, Rich Lowry and Robert Lieber. Let me go back again to Rich Lowry on this. Look, I mean, everybody's appalled by what happened at Netanya, although my view is Hamas did it. Hamas claimed credit for it. Arafat condemned it. He probably had nothing to do with it. I don't think he could have stopped it.
But if the bottom line, is it not the Israeli presence on the West Bank, the Israeli settlements, the Israeli occupation that is the cause of the war that incites the terrorists, unjustified as they are?
LOWRY: Pat, I can't believe that you are in any way making excuses for terrorism. And the fact is if a Mexican suicide bombers were sneaking into Arizona or southern California and blowing up innocent Americans, I have an inkling that you would hold Vincente Fox responsible for that. And the fact is that it's not just Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but groups allied and connected to Yasser Arafat's own faction of the PLO have been involved in many of these attacks this year.
BUCHANAN: All right. But (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
LOWRY: And Arafat is using terrorism because he thinks it works.
BUCHANAN: I know he does. That's why he's using it. But that's what they did to the American Marines in Beirut and what they did to our embassy in Beirut was an outrage and a criminal action and we should have gone after them and we did go after them. But the reason the Americans were attacked is because we were there. Now, Larry Korb, what do you think is the fundamental cause of this conflict and what, if anything, can be done really to terminate it, or is it, as a friend of mine said, a terminal conflict in which the stronger or the one with the greatest resolve and determination is going to win it?
KORB: Well, the United States has to get more deeply involved. This administration made a terrible mistake in backing off from getting involved in this part of the world. And even now, General Zinni is a swell fella, but he's retired. He's not part of this administration. It's no accident that secretaries of state like Kissinger and Schultz spent an awful lot of time in that part of the world. And that's really what's got to happen.
We were very close at the end of the Clinton administration and rather than picking up on it, we backed off and let the nature take its course and this is what's happened. I think Rich is right. Arafat shares a lot of the blame because he was offered a pretty good deal by Barak and he should have come up with a counteroffer.
LOWRY: You have to draw the line somewhere. And at some point, you have to say this guy is a terrorist.
KORB: I didn't interrupt you. I didn't interrupt you, Rich. Let me finish, OK.
BUCHANAN: Let him finish. We'll go to Mr. Lieber next. Go ahead.
KORB: OK. I mean, Arafat bears a lot of the blame for this because he had a pretty good deal on the table and he should have come up with a counteroffer. I think he has unleashed forces over which he has no control anymore.
BUCHANAN: Larry, let me follow up on that. Now, look, the Barak offer, everybody agrees went further than anything and Arafat appeared to brush it off the table. Should the Israelis put forward something like that again or should they sweep it off the table because Sharon ran and won on a platform of rejecting that?
KORB: Well, I think he did because of the violence that started the second intifada. I think he can't do that now, but eventually we know what it's going to look like. There is going to be a separate Palestinian state. The Arabs are going to recognize the right of Israel to exist and the borders will be pretty close to the plan that Barak laid down.
BUCHANAN: All right. Let me go to Professor Lieber. Go ahead.
LIEBER: Well, the problem has been Arafat. He had a deal on the table which would have met the aspirations of the Palestinians. He rejected it. And the reason he rejected it is that he has not been willing to make peace with Israel. And it is not about a small, tactical point. It is about what the Palestinian — the PLO used to call the policy of stages, that is they'll take what they can get at the negotiating table, but they're determined ultimately to do away with Israel. That's why issues such as the “right of return of refugees” are deal busters because they imply an unwillingness to accept a real peace with Israel.
LOWRY: Absolutely correct.
BUCHANAN: All right, but let me get into this. Look, there's going to eventually — I think Larry Korb is right. If there's going to be a peace, there's going to be a Palestinian state. It's going to be on the West Bank. It's probably going to have a capital, a Vatican city in Arab East Jerusalem, even if the city is not going to be divided again. The Muslims get the holy places and the Israelis are going to get almost all of the Golan Heights as Barak was about to do. I mean, what is it that prevents — let's ask Professor Lieber — what prevents our move in there?
LIEBER: What prevents this happening is the unwillingness of Arafat and, for that matter, the Syrian leadership to live in peace with Israel. You're absolutely right in referring to what the likely outlines of a settlement will be. But when or if they ever get there will depend on a profound change on the part of the Palestinian Authority, Arafat, and the groups surround him, which, by the way, are responsible for a fair number of the suicide bombings including the so-called Al Aqsa Brigade.
BUCHANAN: All right. Let's go to Rich Lowry. Rich, what do you think — what plan do you think Sharon should put on the table if any to Arafat or should he just go in as Netanyahu urges him and kick him off the West Bank and out of Gaza?
LOWRY: Well, this is the real problem, Pat, is that he can't decide. And it's some combination of the domestic politics and Israel and holding him back and the U.S. has been holding him back. I think we should give him a free hand. I think Arafat has basically established his terrorist credentials now to anyone's satisfaction and it should be Sharon's decision about whether it's better to chase that regime out of the West Bank or try to leave it. But I don't think just taking tanks to Arafat's headquarters and parking them outside serves much purpose. It serves — it makes Arafat a victim without really making him hurt in any real sense.
BUCHANAN: I agree 100 percent with that. But, look, he clearly is unwilling to do what Netanyahu suggests, which is simply kick him out of the West Bank. And if he is not going to do that, I mean, what's his alternative? He promised peace and security and he clearly hasn't delivered.
LOWRY: Yes. Well, yes, he's, in some sense, stuck until he makes some fundamental choice. But, you know, Pat, I also agree that the basic outlines of the deal that you laid out are correct. You know, that's common sense. But Israel cannot make peace with a terrorist Palestinian state and the fact, Pat, is that Palestinian society is convulsed in this orgy of suicide murders. Every significant faction in Palestinian politics is competing over who can blow up the most Israelis.
BUCHANAN: All right. But before Ariel Sharon went stomping around the temple mount with a thousand armed guards, there were no terrorists incidents, even after the collapse of Camp David and before that. I agree with you, now the situation is totally inflamed. You've now got more people involved in terrorists. You've got guys with eight kids going out with bombs around them. You've got 47 terrorist attacks. But, you know, there's no — going forward, the Sharon route, isn't working.
LOWRY: Well, Pat, to make one last point then I'll stop filibustering, you mentioned when our barracks were blown up in Lebanon. What did we ultimately do? We cut and we ran. What did Israel do?
BUCHANAN: Well, we didn't belong in there. We didn't belong in Lebanon.
LOWRY: Let me finish the point. What did Israel do in May 2000 in southern Lebanon? They cut and ran. And this makes the terrorists think they can win.
BUCHANAN: But, Rich, there's a point here. Israel maybe didn't belong in Lebanon and maybe we didn't belong in Lebanon. But, Larry Korb, go ahead.
KORB: Well, I think the fact of the matter is that Israel needs a strategy, a long-term strategy. And the strategy that Sharon has, whether he went into Beirut back when we were in government, or, you know, some of these real hard incursions now is not going to work for Israel in the long run. We all want Israel to be a safe, secure state. But they have got the wrong strategy now. Sharon is in a no-win position. If he moves too far one way, he loses part of his cabinet. If he moves too far the other way, he loses part of his cabinet.
BUCHANAN: Larry, let me ask you a question based on demography. In my little book “Death of the West”, I studied the demographics. There are 4.2 million Palestinians under Israeli rule now in Israel, West Bank, Gaza. That will be 9 million in 2025 and 15 million in 2050 with 10 more million Palestinians in Jordan; 25 million Palestinians, 7.5 million Israeli Jews. I mean, don't the Israelis have to settle?
KORB: Well, of course, they have to settle because if they don't, they'll end up just killing each other ad infinitum and this is not really what they want. One of problems you have is the casualty ratios are becoming much closer than they were and in the long-term, this will be self-defeating for the Israelis.
BUCHANAN: Professor Lieber, what do you think the Israelis ought to do now?
LIEBER: Well, it's hard to say. Sharon is pulled apart in a way. But I think the United States would do better to put more pressure on Arafat and to put pressure on the Europeans who, along with us, are his principle sources of funding, and to put pressure on our Arab friends to lean on Arafat as well. Unless there's a change there, nothing can move.
And there's one more point. There's a lot of talk about a cycle of violence, which implies mirror imaging as though each side were equally responsible. But it's not the case. You can't compare people who carry out premeditated suicide murders, basically mass murder of innocent civilians, with the casualties that occur in efforts to defend against and root out the terrorists.
BUCHANAN: I agree, Professor Lieber, but, look, there is no moral equivalence between direct murder and collateral damage. But that is a tough case to make to some Palestinian father whose kid has just been shot because a bullet went through the wall.
LIEBER: Well, it is not the point. The reason those Palestinian kids die is Yasser Arafat and the steady diet of brutal incitement and propaganda that has been fed to the Palestinian population on the West Bank and Gaza ever since the Palestinian Authority took over responsibility in those areas. And let me add that it isn't the Israelis who govern most of the Palestinians. They're under the tender mercies of the P.A., not of the IDF.
BUCHANAN: OK. Thank you, gentlemen.
Next, do homosexuals have any place in Catholic seminaries or in the priesthood because they're there? We'll debate that topic and a news update on what's going on in the Middle East. You're watching MSNBC, the best news on cable.
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HOLT: Good evening, everyone. I'm Lester Holt at MSNBC world headquarters. We'll return to MAKING SENSE in a moment. But first, the latest developments out of the Middle East. Less than 12 hours after Yasser Arafat said he was ready for an immediate and unconditional cease-fire, Israeli tanks are literally at his doorstep in Ramallah tonight.
There has been gun fire, five Palestinian police officers have been hurt. Also, the Israeli cabinet, led by Ariel Sharon, continue to meet in a marathon session, deciding whether to strike back with a massive attack against Palestinian targets in retaliation for yesterday's suicide bombing that killed at least 20 people.
MSNBC's Dana Lewis on the scene now in Ramallah where these tanks have moved into position. What's the latest, Dana?
LEWIS: Lester, I'm in the center of Ramallah and just over my headquarters, about five minutes' drive from me is Yasser Arafat's headquarters and for the last several hours, I can tell you I've been hearing heavy, heavy machine gun fire coming in that direction and at times, I have heard tank fire, probably 12 to 15 different tank shots being fired, echoing across the city this morning.
Just down the road from us now, an armored personnel carrier from the Israeli army has moved in. Originally, we were told that the army moved in from four different areas from the north and from the south into Ramallah. We have two separate reports, sources telling us that those tanks are around Yasser Arafat's headquarters, some describing them as about half a block to a block away.
Right now, we have no indications that they have entered the compound. It seems that they are just outside. And even as I'm speaking to you now, I can still hear some tank fire coming. The Israeli army is confirming that they have launched action not only targeted action here in Ramallah, but across the West Bank. So, they have entered some other cities. I'm just wondering if you're able to hear any of that.
HOLT: No, we can't pick it up.
LEWIS: A lot of shelling — OK, Lester. A lot of shelling coming from that area. As I say, the army has entered not only Ramallah, but they've gone into other areas across the West Bank. The government continues to meet. We're told now they have been in there for more than 6 1/2 hours meeting, that their options are that they may outlaw the Palestinian Authority.
That is something that is being debated. That mean they would not negotiate with the Palestinian authority anymore, they wouldn't meet with them and that may arrest some of their members and they are also reportedly debating whether to put Yasser Arafat into exile and Palestinian sources here, people I've been meeting with in the last 24 hours say if that were to happen, all hell would break loose all across the West Bank. By the sounds of it over my shoulder, that is already happening.
HOLT: Dana, if you could put it into perspective for us, it's not the first time tanks have moved on Ramallah, given the reports of the proximity of the tanks to Arafat's headquarters, how would you compare this to earlier forays by Israeli forces?
LEWIS: Certainly we have never had any indication they were going to threaten Yasser Arafat himself. They moved into Ramallah two weeks ago, 150 tanks or so because they were moving on terrorist organizations to go in and take out some of the bomb-making equipment that they said were connected to some of these groups, to Hamas, to the Islamic jihad, to the Al Aqsa brigade, Fattah group, but this is something different.
This is said to be a major operation all across the West Bank right now. As you can see, the sun is just coming up, so as the day unfolds here, we will begin to see how big this operation is. But it seems much bigger than the last one and, of course, heavy, heavy machine gun fire there, Lester. Of course, this one seems that it may be focusing on the actual headquarters of Yasser Arafat. And that is where that fire is coming from right now in the direction of that. So, that would be a major, major development in this conflict.
HOLT: And this comes at a time, the day that Yasser Arafat said he's ready for peace. The initial Israeli reaction to that was very, very skeptical earlier this afternoon.
LEWIS: I was in his news conference in his compound tonight and I asked Yasser Arafat why don't you call on your people to stop shooting if you're serious about a cease-fire? He said you haven't heard me. We are calling for a cease-fire and we are ready to implement one.
Then he also said a little later that he is ready to implement a cease-fire, based on the Tenet agreement. That is the agreement that was negotiated by CIA director George Tenet last fall. It does not take into account the fact that U.S. envoy Anthony Zinni has been on the ground and he has brought in new proposals from the Israelis and the Palestinians so-called bridging proposals to try and get the cease-fire implemented.
And Arafat essentially said tonight, yes, we'll go ahead with the cease-fire, but not any of these new proposals, just the old cease-fire agreement and that is not acceptable to Israel right now, and that is the snag and it is a major snag.
HOLT: MSNBC's Dana Lewis, in the thick of it in Ramallah. Dana, thank you so much. We want to remind folk that we are expecting that cabinet meeting, led by Ariel Sharon to wrap up fairly shortly. We're told that he will address reporters when it is over.
MSNBC will carry his remarks live. Stay tuned for that. That's the very latest from MSNBC world headquarters. I'm Lester Holt. I want to send you back now to ALAN KEYES IS MAKING SENSE with guest host tonight Pat Buchanan.
BUCHANAN: Thanks, Lester. Welcome back to MAKING SENSE. I'm Pat Buchanan sitting in for Alan Keyes. We're going to turn now to that scandal in the Catholic church, the homosexual pedophile scandal and the crisis of authority in the Catholic church now. It's been boiling over for months, especially the last couple of weeks.
Joining us is Mary Louise Cervone, the national president of Dignity U.S.A., the nation's largest lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender catholic organization. Also with us is Deal Hudson, editor and publisher of “Crisis Magazine,” a conservative Catholic issues publication.
Welcome to MAKING SENSE. Mary Louise, let me start with you. I believe the Pope's authority today over in the Vatican said that homosexuals really don't belong, whether they're out of the closet or practicing or non-practicing, simply the orientation. They do not belong in Catholic seminaries and they do not belong in the Catholic priesthood.
Now, given that 90 percent of the abuses that we've heard about are not pedophiles, those are the ones involving children, but they're involving sort of teenagers and seminarians and priests, doesn't this make common sense?
MARY LOUISE CERVONE, DIGNITY U.S.: Pat, first of all, I don't know that the number is 90 percent and, in fact, the age of the child is irrelevant. What we're very concerned about is that children have been abused. Individual priests are guilty of committing acts of sexual violence against children regardless of their age. These acts — these acts have no basis in the Catholic church, in our faith. As far as gay priests, any link to homosexuality, homosexual priests and pedophilia is simply wrong. There are gay priests, there are straight priests...
BUCHANAN: Mary, look. Everyone agrees that any priest that has been involved with someone who is under 12 years old, under 13 years old is a criminal. He should have been reported to police. He should have been removed from the priesthood. He should have been thrown out of the archdiocese.
The cardinals archbishop's failed to do that. Some bishops moved them around and that is wrong, and we'll talk about that crisis of the authority, the bishops responsible. We're also talking about seminarians, priests involved with boys, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, in some cases crimes, but in other cases, if you are dealing with 17, 18 years old, 16 years old, they may not be crimes, you're dealing with an awful scandal, and it is prevalent because of the homosexual network in the Catholic church.
Doesn't this suggest the boy scouts are right when they keep the homosexuals away from boy scouts, cub scouts, eagle scouts, any of them?
CERVONE: No, Pat. Because the kind of abuse that we're talking about is an abuse of power and an abuse of sacred trust. In no way are these acts of sexual violence, whether they are committed against 12-year-olds or 4-year-olds or 16-year-olds, and, in fact, we're not hearing about the acts of violence committed against girls. We're really focusing, media attention is focused on boys. Fine. Go with that.
These acts of violence are abuses of power and trust. Healthy relationships whether they are heterosexual or homosexual, all contain the component of physical sex.
BUCHANAN: All right. Let me bring Deal Hudson into this. Neil, what is your take on what you just heard?
DEAL HUDSON, “CRISIS MAGAZINE”: Well, I think she's got it entirely wrong. It's clearly the case, as you say, that there is a homosexual subculture in the Catholic church, which accounts for the big numbers we're seeing in sexual abuse of children by priests. And it surely does matter the age of the child involved, because the younger the child the more the child is really a victim, the more the child is really being preyed upon by an adult. And whenever there is sexual abuse anywhere between an adult and a child, there is a power relation. You don't have to be a priest to have a power over a child. Any adult in any occupation or no occupation has power over a child.
BUCHANAN: Let me ask you this, is it your judgment, Deal, that the homosexuals who are in the seminaries and the priesthood have a greater proclivity to abuse children, whether they're subteens or teenagers, than heterosexual priests do? And is that the scandal in the church? And is the Vatican right when its spokesman says that homosexuals, even with their orientation ought not to be in the seminaries and ought not to be ordained?
HUDSON: Well, the first part of your question, the answer is yes because homosexuals have three times greater likelihood to be pedophiles than heterosexuals. So, the answer is yes, just statistically. The answer to your second question is that the church has long taught in various ways that homosexuals should be very closely screened, if not all together barred from the priesthood.
As you know, cannon 1040 says that anyone with a psychic disorder of any type should not be ordained. The cannon does not go on to say that homosexuality is explicitly one of those disorders, but it should be discussed and the standard, the bar has to be raised in the future to keep this number of homosexuals from entering the priesthood. But remember one thing, Pat, and I'm sure you'll agree with me. We don't want to start a witch hunt for homosexuals in the priesthood, and there surely are among 46,000 priests in the United States celibate homosexual priests serving the church in wonderful ways.
BUCHANAN: Mary and Deal, stay right there. We'll have more on the crisis of Catholicism. After this, we'll be right back.
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BUCHANAN: Welcome back. We're talking about that crisis in the Roman Catholic Church with Mary Louise Cervone of the homosexual group, Dignity U.S.A. And Deal Hudson of “Crisis” magazine, a Catholic magazine.
Mary Louise, what deal was saying was that there was a far greater proclivity, I believe he said 3-1 on the part of homosexuals, if you will, to abuse teenagers and boys than there is heterosexuals. Now, a, do you believe that's true and, second, if it is true is it not simple common sense that the Catholic Church ought to do what the boy scouts do, which is say look, they may be good folks, but we have a rule against homosexuals as scout masters?
CERVONE: Well, Pat, I could have saved you the second half of the question because the answer to the first part of the question is no. I don't believe there's any credible science that would hold that theory out. And in fact, those kinds of statements are very inflammatory in this situation.
The real crisis in the church is that the Catholic Church has chosen to scapegoat gay priests, rather than take responsibility for its own actions and inactions, and that has opened the door to this feeding frenzy of —
BUCHANAN: You say scapegoat, gay priests. Isn't the problem that they have not really removed the gay priests from the ranks and removed them from the flock?
CERVONE: No.
BUCHANAN: I mean, many...
CERVONE: No.
BUCHANAN: ... of these were wolves preying on the lamb.
CERVONE: No, Pat, no. Because the gay priests have been scapegoated by the Catholic Church so as the church to avoid taking responsibility for itself. First of all, we don't know, we don't know that every predator or that any predator was a gay priest. What we do know as fact is that children of various ages have been abused sexually.
BUCHANAN: Let me go to Deal. Deal, look, if you've got a gay priest or a priest preying on teenage boys, he is a homosexual, is he not by definition?
HUDSON: Absolutely by definition. And of course —
BUCHANAN: And 90 percent of the cases or 85 percent of the cases?
HUDSON: That is correct.
CERVONE: Now, you could split the hair and the technical meaning of the word homosexual. What is important for people to understand is that within relationships, whether it is gay or straight, the sexual component is whole, it is healthy, it is mutual, it is respectful of the other.
HUDSON: Are you saying that pedophilia is good — are you saying that pedophilia is good for the child?
CERVONE: No.
HUDSON: It is beneficial to the child?
CERVONE: No. I'm saying exactly the opposite. What I'm saying is exactly the opposite. The acts, the sexual acts that have been perpetrated against children in the Catholic church are not whole. They are not healthy. They are criminal. They are morally reprehensible and...
HUDSON: You know what? I agree with you. We totally agree with you. And it's not a matter of scapegoating any group of priests, homosexuals or not, it is a matter of pointing to the perpetrators and punishing them.
BUCHANAN: All right. Let me — let me pick up on that, Deal.
CERVONE: Then point to the perpetrators, not to gay priests.
BUCHANAN: All right. Let me pick up on the authority question. Deal, look, let's take the question of Cardinal Bernard Law, who quite obviously, covered up for a priest, more than that, moved this priest around, who was a real pedophile, from parish to parish, and they kept this quiet. How do you maintain your moral authority when the shepherd, in effect, has covered up the tracks of the wolf?
HUDSON: Well, it's hard. But, you know, Cardinal Law has...
BUCHANAN: Has a fine pro-life record. I know that.
HUDSON: He's a very distinguished man and very distinguished priest, and he's going through a very rough time and I know that you and other Catholic leaders have called for his resignation. And I really wonder, you know, where that's going to get us. I mean, we're looking for...
BUCHANAN: Well, let me tell you...
HUDSON: ... some kind of symbolic scout to be taken.
BUCHANAN: Look, it's not a scalp. I also called for the resignation of someone I was far closer to than Cardinal Law, and that's Richard Nixon as president of the United States. It seems to me when your moral authority is gone, that you can't really lead an archdiocese like this. But, look, these bishops are so high, isn't this a matter for the pope?
HUDSON: It certainly is. I mean, it's not really an issue of resignation. It's really an issue of the pope to decide whether he wants this bishop or that cardinal to remain in his chair. And it seems to me that the trouble with calling for one person's resignation, if you look around the country, there are lots of bishops who have not really overseen these cases very well. As you know, we did a cover story in “Crisis” in October on the price of pedophilia, even before the “Boston Globe” got on it. And we were looking at $1 billion, we were projecting $1 billion in pay outs.
BUCHANAN: That's low. That's mighty low. Well, listen, Deal Hudson, Mary Louise, thank you very much.
Up next, an update on the Middle East. Things are developing quickly there. Stay with us.
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BUCHANAN: Let's go to MSNBC headquarters for an update on the situation in Israel.
LESTER HOLT, MSNBC ANCHOR: And more late developments, Pat. Word crossing the Reuters wires now, Reuters citing a Palestinian official saying Israeli bulldozers are demolishing a fence around Yasser Arafat's compound in Ramallah right now.
As we've been reporting over the last hour, Israeli tanks have moved in, surrounded Yasser Arafat's compound, his office, and according to this report now, are demolishing the fence around the compound. While this is going on, the Israeli cabinet is meeting for more than six hours now, it's approaching 6:00 in the morning right now in Israel. They have been discussing throughout the night how to respond to the suicide attacks and another attack that claimed three lives in an Israeli settlement. One option was a massive retaliatory offensive. We haven't received word from that. Ariel Sharon is expected to come out and address reporters as soon as that marathon cabinet meeting ends. MSNBC will carry it for you live.
That's the very latest from our world headquarters now. I'm Lester Holt. Let's send it back now to Pat.
BUCHANAN: Thanks, Lester. Stay tuned to MSNBC for the latest on the Middle East crisis. Alan will be back on Monday. I'm Pat Buchanan. Have a happy Easter and a wonderful Passover.