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Alan Keyes is Making Sense
Alan KeyesMarch 25, 2002
ALAN KEYES, MSNBC HOST: Welcome to MAKING SENSE. I'm Alan Keyes.
As you probably have noticed, the interest and the tension that's being given in the media to the growing scandal within the Catholic Church involving misconduct among priests with young children, accusations of sexual misconduct, now concerns about whether or not prelates in the church were involved in conduct that could be construed as actually trying to keep this conduct from the authorities. This reached a crest over the weekend. Letters were sent to many — dioceses and parishes, read ride priests from the pulpit in place of sermons.
I myself, will be pointing out a little later, in our own church parish, we saw some very moving moments in presentations from the priest who said mass and letters from our parish priest. I think every Catholic in the country is going, as we enter into this holiest week of the Catholic season, through a trying and a time of great grief and pain for all of us.
Once again, tonight we will be focusing in the program on the issues, the painful, difficult issues that are raised by this crisis. And that I think need to be dealt with the greatest care, the greatest compassion, but also the greatest honesty that we can muster in the best interest, not only of the church but of all those issues, I care deeply about, that require that there be integrity in the moral stance and judgment of the church in confidence in its credibility.
Well, up front tonight, Archbishop John Foley, who is the president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for Social Communications is joining us. I spoke to him earlier today, he came from Rome, and I asked him whether he believed that some of the church's prelates had in fact engaged in conduct that in any other institution would be considered a cover-up.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN FOLEY, ARCHBISHOP, VATICAN SPOKESPERSON: I don't want to put myself in their shoes for decisions which were made 25 or 30 years ago. I think one of the things is that we also believe in the possibility of repentance, and sometimes a bishop as a spiritual father will receive somebody who says I made a terrible mistake, I'm sorry, give me another chance. And there's a natural tendency or a supernatural tendency, I guess, to be compassionate and to say all right. And if the individual has been given clearance by those who work in psychology and psychiatry who say he's cured, he won't do this again, then they take a chance. And as we know...
KEYES: But your grace.
(CROSSTALK)
FOLEY: ... now, that was a mistake.
KEYES: Your grace, part of the problem, though, that I see is that in dealing with sexual matters, the church can not accept the understanding of modern psychology and modern psychiatry, which regard human sexuality as if it is simply a bodily function, apart from God, apart from grace, apart from the account of gender that is given in the scripture and has been embraced by the church.
Doesn't — don't the decisions of the prelates in the church have to reflect the sacred understanding of human sexuality, and respond to these things in accord with that understanding?
FOLEY: That is true. And obviously they never said that these individuals were doing the right thing. What they were saying is that the individuals did do something which was seriously wrong. The priests were sent for some type of medical treatment, also in addition to a period of penance. And then it was presumed that they had been both healed spiritually and psychologically, which turned out not to be the case. And that's the terrible mistake that was made, and I think that the victims in that case suffered greatly, because they probably saw these individuals being reassigned and they say, what's wrong here?
KEYES: But at the end of the day, I think one of the problems is; can there, in fact, be a healing if there is no visible accountability? And that visible accountability, just as it would anywhere else in the world. When Bill Clinton was involved in all the scandal, many of us thought he should resign, and the lack of visible accountability hurt the country. Won't a lack of visible accountability prevent the kind of healing that needs to occur in the church?
FOLEY: I think you have had visible accountability. Those who have been responsible for the actions have been removed from office. People are attempting to root out from the church any people who have been involved in such activity. Now, I think what you mean is those who had left them or transferred those individuals to other positions should also leave office, but there's a big difference between an objectively immoral act, which is terribly scandalous, and a mistake in judgment, which is also based upon the fact that the individual who made the mistake in judgment thought that the situation had been cured and that the individuals who had performed the malicious act were themselves repentant.
KEYES: I agree with that. But I think that here we're talking about two different aspects of the situation. There is an objectively moral evil, but there is also grave damage to the credibility and authority of the church. Grave pain that is caused. My parish priest who was saying mass, young priest yesterday, who was being approached by people and asked if he is not ashamed to wear the collar of his priesthood. And of course he responded with courage that this was his marriage band, and he would wear it till he died. But the fact that mistaken judgments have caused this kind of deep pain must mean a question about, not the goodness, but the competence of those who made the judgment. And no institution can survive if it is unwilling to hold incompetence accountable. And that is true of the church.
We're not talking here of a judgment about the morality of the prelates, but a judgment about whether or not, having, in fact, made deep errors that led to this kind of deep wound, it is not necessary that they be held accountable if their authority. And can they go on holding that authority, exercising it on behalf of the church when so grave a question mark is now behind their judgment?
FOLEY: Well, a number of people, all of us throughout life make mistakes, especially mistakes in judgment. And I think that one of the things is we learn from our mistakes, I would hope. So, I don't think you can say that somebody who has made a mistake in judgment or a serious mistake in judgment or mistakes in judgment can be held to be incompetent to exercise authority if that individual has shown himself to be willing to learn from the mistakes which he made.
KEYES: Sadly, your grace, I think part of the question mark is that when an individual was out there when they had committed this kind of transgression, when you had accepted their statement of forgiveness, when they transgressed again and again, you have already made repeated mistakes in judgment that suggest that you can not learn from your experience. And that something deeper is needed to form and instruct that judgment, and to leave an individual in a high position of authority when that kind of doubt exists, it seems to me it will aggravate the perception that there is a grave untreated problem in the church.
It does damage, not necessarily to the depths or the core of the church's moral standing but to the credibility of its authority, which also has to be dealt with. I speak now from the point of view of a deeply grieved layman in the Catholic Church, and I don't see how that wound can be healed if the prelates are not held accountable, along with the priests.
FOLEY: They are held accountable but it's one thing to be held accountable and say why did you do this, and if the individual says I made a mistake, I'm sorry, I thought the individual was sorry. Obviously, he wasn't, because he did it again, I erred gravely. I will try to reform my life in that way to make sounder judgments, and to remove anyone I know who has this problem from any position in which he could have any contact with young people. And not have this individual exercise the priesthood in the future.
KEYES: Your grace.
FOLEY: So, I think there's a real difference —
KEYES: Your grace.
FOLEY: Yes. Hello. I'm still here.
KEYES: I asked a question like this of someone on the show the other day; if the same mistake had been made about priests who physically assaulted and killed children, would we have the same lack of urgency about the need to correct this mistake in judgment? And, yet, according to the church's teaching, Christ has told us that we should not fear those who simply harm the body. We should more fear those or the one who can damage body and soul in hell.
Now, it seems to me that the moral scandal ought to be more serious to the church than any physical assault would be. And yet it is not being dealt with. I can't believe that you'd believe prelates should be left in place if they had allowed serial murderers to physically kill children, and yet they have allowed people to endanger what we believers deeply believe to be more important than their physical selves. And that's what I've told my children all my life. And I just don't understand what we're supposed to do with our kids if the church doesn't take clear and visible steps to correct this undermining of its authority.
FOLEY: The church has taken clear and visible steps as far as I can say. I know from this viewpoint here in Rome and from what I saw in the United States just last week, individuals have been — any priest involved in such activity, any complaint, any credible complaint that has been brought forth has been responded to and all priests who have been engaged in such activities have been removed from the active ministry.
So, I think that's a clear action to remove the source of scandal. Things have happened in the past, certainly. And there were mistakes in judgment, certainly. But I think it's clear that the church has made a real effort to remove from the active ministry anybody who has in any way harmed innocent children.
KEYES: I think — you know, I come from the perspective — I know worldly politics where the standards are actually lower than they need to be, I think, for the clergy. But even there, back when Richard Nixon got involved with covering up deeds he hadn't done, he hadn't been involved in, objectively speaking, in any of the wrongdoing, but he had been willing to connive at a cover-up.
And I'm sorry, your grace, it appears from the point of view of those standing without — and I'm thinking now not just of people in the church, but others in other denominations, in other — this looks like people who connived at a cover-up who are going to be left in place, and it seems to me that is going to do grave, deep damage to the credibility of the church. It seems to me those who really cared and who really felt the depth of that mistake in judgment would take it upon themselves, in fact, to do what Nixon did, and stand down, not just because of that mistake in judgment but in order to give in perception as well as reality an opportunity for healing.
FOLEY: Well, I don't think you saw in the case of any of the prelates now who perhaps had made these mistakes in judgment in permitting people back into the active practice of the priesthood after having been advised that these individuals were healed and that these — having been told that they were repentant. That's a lot different than your comparison with Nixon, where there had been an objective wrong done in order to contribute to his re-election. In a sense, he conspired to attempt to cover up the action which contributed to his re-election.
So, I think that there was a participation in the evil there, if we may say that. I hate to make the same comparison with the political and spiritual world. But I do think in the case of the bishops, while they made mistakes in judgment, they were trying to I guess satisfy those two values of protecting the innocent and of believing that people could repent of their sins. So, they were caught in that for individuals who had not repented, were not truly sorry or were not capable of repenting from their sins.
KEYES: Your grace, we have come to the end of our time. I want to thank you for the frank exchange we've been able to have. I think all of us, people inside and outside the Catholic church, are going through a period of tremendous pain and grief. I know that I felt almost a physical pain of this young priest yesterday, brought tears to my eyes and my heart. I think that we know at this time of Easter that with God, there is great hope and renewal. The pope has called for that in his statement.
And I deeply believe that if we wholeheartedly commit ourselves to the true path of faith, that renewal is a grace from God and we will join you in praying that will be the case for all of us.
FOLEY: I thank you, Mr. Keyes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KEYES: That was my interview earlier today with Archbishop John Foley. He came to us from the Vatican. He's a Vatican spokesman. Obviously, a very intense, a difficult subject. I really appreciated his willingness to engage in a frank exchange and conversation about it to try to get to the heart of the matter.
We're going to continue in that effort as we always do on this program, trying to get to the heart of the matter. We'll answer these questions. First of all, what kind of accountability is needed to restore the credibility of the church? Are top clergy implicated in the scandal? Is resignation or removal the right response? Plus our open phone line segment. Call me at 1-866-KEYES-USA with whatever is on your mind. You're watching MSNBC, the best news on cable.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEYES: “Newsweek” just released a poll on the Catholic church. Seventy percent of Americans, including Catholics and non-Catholics responded saying the Catholic church has been too lenient in dealing with priests who sexually abuse children and young people. The poll also asks whether married men should be allowed to be priests. We'll give you the results in our next half-hour and have a serious debate on the issue.
A reminder, K.Z. says the Catholic church is like any other institution, full of human beings and they all have pedophiles, coaches, teachers, everyone. That's, of course, atour chat.msnbc site. You can join in right now at CHAT.MSNBC.COM.
But first, we're talking about how the Catholic church can recover from this current crisis. Joining us now to get to the heart of the matter is Keith Fournier, the president and founder of Common Good, an organization dedicated to promoting Christian social values. He is also a married Catholic deacon. Also with us, Mike Barnicle, columnist for the “New York Daily News”, radio talk show host and MSNBC commentator. Welcome gentlemen to MAKING SENSE.
KEITH FOURNIER, FOUNDER & PRESIDENT, COMMON GOOD: Thank you.
KEYES: Let me start first with Mike Barnicle. Since I understand, Mike, that you have looked at this crisis. Like a lot of folks, you I think have reacted with a both intense passion and grief. What is your sense of what is required in order to achieve the kind of accountability that could begin to undo the damage that has been done to the church's credibility?
MIKE BARNICLE, “NEW YORK DAILY NEWS”: Well, Alan, I think it's pretty clear. I think that you alluded to it in your discussion with Archbishop Foley earlier in the hour, and it's literally the Vatican on down has to open the windows of the Catholic church and let the breeze of the 21st century blow in.
And in that wind, there has got to be accountability. There's got to be accountability for what has happened in the past. There's got to be — there's got to be a removal of the sense of aloofness and isolation of the American Catholic church hierarchy from the faithful. Yesterday was Palm Sunday in Catholic churches across this country, and you had the reading of the long gospel. Included in the reading of the long gospel was the betrayal of Jesus Christ himself.
I went to church yesterday at St. Ignatius Loyola on the campus of Boston College. There were 2,000 people in that church, many of them young. They were of all backgrounds, Asian, Hispanic, black, white. The faithful are still faithful. The hierarchy have got to listen to the fact that the church belongs to the people, not to someone wearing a red hat. No one goes to church to see Cardinal Egan or Cardinal Law. We go to church to worship, and the faithful have to be paid attention to.
KEYES: Keith, what do you think is the path that might lead to healing and renovation in the wake of this scandal? Obviously posing some very tough and difficult questions of accountability for both priests and the hierarchy. What's the path to take?
FOURNIER: First of all, Alan, thanks for expressing outrage. We need to hear more of that because our hearts are broken and we have to seriously examine this. You began tonight the way we should begin, with outrage. But I think we also ought to move towards prayer, towards repentance. There's a moniker at the bottom of the screen on the show tonight, “can the Catholicism recover?” Of course it can.
The gates of hell will not prevail against the church. This is not the first time in history that we have seen this kind of scandal hit the clergy, and with all due respect to Mike, I grew up in Dorchester, I like you, I respect you...
BARNICLE: What parish?
FOURNIER: St. Matthews, actually, in Dorchester, but the winds are blowing in the church right now, thank God. That's why I think stuff is being exposed. I thank got for John Paul II. I think God for the new evangelization.
BARNICLE: Yes, he stepped right up to the plate the other day, didn't he? One paragraph out of 22 pages, and basically blamed the problem on Warner Brothers' movies.
FOURNIER: Mike, I think that's mistake you're making. He has spoken to it before as well. That paragraph was in his letter to the priest.
BARNICLE: When? When?
FOURNIER: At Oceana, and there has been a lot of other things going on. But let me speak to this point.
BARNICLE: When are they going to realize...
FOURNIER: Mike, I am a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) too, my friend. Look, I'm a member of the hierarchy, lowest rung, a deacon, but nonetheless, this linkage is a big mistake. We have a crisis here. We have to deal with it. You're trying to link all of your desired changes in the church as if, for example, getting rid of celibacy is going to fix the problem of homosexualization, or all of that.
BARNICLE: Let's get to that later and deal with the fact that the American hierarchy...
FOURNIER: Mike, I'm dealing with it and you know what? I don't think it's a time for just saying that people who wear red hats are not why we go to church. I think we should be praying for the people who wear red hats and shouldn't be pointing the finger in the wrong way.
BARNICLE: They have been pointing the finger at American Catholics every Sunday, wagging the finger from the pulpit when they don't know when they don't know the difference between right and wrong.
FOURNIER: I don't know where you're going to mass, I don't know where you are going to mass.
BARNICLE: Let me ask you a question.
FOURNIER: Sure.
BARNICLE: Is pedophilia, the rape of a child, a crime?
FOURNIER: Of course it is. I'm a lawyer 22 years...
BARNICLE: Why is it not reported?
FOURNIER: Listen, I don't disagree with you on this. I call for full disclosure, zero tolerance, prosecution. That's not the issue.
BARNICLE: If that's not the issue...
FOURNIER: What I'm taking umbrage with is your effort right now to do a linkage to say it's a matter if the red hats.
KEYES: Mike, let him finish, and then we'll get back to you. Mike, let Keith finish and then you will have your opportunity.
BARNICLE: If we let Keith finish we will be here till midnight.
KEYES: Please, go ahead, Keith. Finish up.
FOURNIER: Absolutely. My point is we should take this as an opportunity for looking at this problem with honesty, with crystal clarity, the full extent of the law. We should have prosecutions if need be. But this effort of trying to squeeze into this crisis everyone's agenda for what should change in the church is not going to help the victims, it's not going to help the church, and it's not going to move us forward, which is most important.
KEYES: Now, if I can put a word in, Mike, before I give you back the floor, I didn't take umbrage exactly, but I would have to disagree with one formulation, that the church does not belong to the people or to the prelates. It is the church of Jesus Christ and it belongs to Christ, to almighty God, and all of us who are part of it are members of his church, which belongs to him.
I think part of the problem here is that people are forgetting this. They're acting like it's about human beings. This is about God's way and God's will and whether some people who took a vow that they would act with integrity according to that will have in fact respected that vow at all levels. I think it is very important to remember that. We can't run the church by vote and neither I think can we run the church by mistaken judgments that don't take account of the teachings that the hierarchy have down through the years professed to be the central core teachings of the church.
So, I think in one respect we have to be careful not to look at this crisis as if it's some kind of emancipation from the discipline of faith, because it can't be — Mike Barnicle.
BARNICLE: You know, I have no idea what both of you guys are talking about. There is a right and a wrong. When you go to parochial school from the first grade on, when you're raised by Catholic parents, you're taught that there's a difference between a right and a wrong. And the right thing to do is to report the rape of a child no matter who committed it. It's not to cover it up. It's not to bring the families in and offer them some hush money and some confidentiality agreement to sign. That's wrong. That's wrong. OK?
KEYES: Absolutely. Mike, Mike, I don't understand what you're saying. Nobody, especially me, has disagreed with that. And the suggestion that anybody has I will take umbrage at.
BARNICLE: You can take all the umbrage you want.
KEYES: Excuse me. Excuse me. Unless you weren't watching, I pressed that exact point with Archbishop Foley and pressed it to an extent that I don't think anybody else has yet.
BARNICLE: Why did you call him your grace? Why did you call him that?
KEYES: The truth of the matter is, Mike...
BARNICLE: Why did you call Archbishop Foley your grace?
KEYES: I don't believe that anything about this requires that those of us who are Catholic believers lose our sense of respect for ourselves, our faith, our God, and the tenants that we have professed all our lives.
BARNICLE: What about the members of the church who have lost respect for the parishioners?
KEYES: One of those tenets is in fact respect for the authority of God and his word, and I'll continue to follow it. But the truth of the matter is, if we are to have that kind of accountability, then the first thing we have to remember is what the pope himself reminded us of and I was glad he did. You misunderstood his statement the other day.
BARNICLE: I guess I must have. It went right over my head. All one paragraph of it.
KEYES: He laid down hard and fast the most important thing that needs to be understood right now, what is the standard of truth in dealing with this. He defined the issue as the most grievous possible sin and he also laid out the right path to deal with it.
So, you're talking about the difference between right and wrong. That can't be understood apart from God. It's not what you say or what I say. It's what God says. And that requires discipline and order to both understand and accept the truth. That's what the pope is calling us to.
BARNICLE: I must have missed, Alan, the path the pope alluded to in my reading of the pope's statement, and also must have missed it when you were speaking to Archbishop Foley or Archbishop Foley probably would have said to you, the pope's path was to remove people responsible for the problem. Weren't you just discussing that with the archbishop?
FOURNIER: Mike, I don't know if you saw Cardinal (UNINTELLIGIBLE) comments...
KEYES: Hold on one second. We are coming up against a break. We are all going to come back. Don't get frustrated. We will be right back and have a chance to move further into this. I have to say, Mike, I'm going to take a minute or two to show you that, yes, apparently the pope's statement did go over your head. But we will get there when we get back. We're going to discuss whether priests should be allowed to marry, among other things. And we are going to be joined by one of my favorite priests, Father Michael Slivey, who is with the legionnaires of Christ. Later we'll get to what's on your mind on any topic. You can call us at 1-866-Keyes-U.S.A. Sit tight. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEYES: Welcome back to MAKING SENSE. I'm Alan Keyes. Should catholic priests be allowed to marry? This question is raised in the context of the ongoing scandal. And the recent Newsweek” poll, 70 percent of Americans both Catholic and non Catholic said it would be a good thing if married men were allowed to be ordained as priests in the Catholic Church.
Now, I happen to believe that that's totally wrong. It makes me glad the church is not run by polls conducted by “Newsweek.” Joining us now, and I want to talk to him about the context of this question, joining me now is one of my favorite priests, somebody I have known now over the course of several years. He has been an important part in my life and the life of my family and my eldest son in particular. He's a member of the Legionaries of Christ, a religious Roman Catholic congregation founded in 1941 to motivate Catholics to take a more active part in the life of the church. His name is Michael Sliney. Welcome, Father Mike, thanks for joining us tonight.
FATHER MICHAEL SLINEY, LEGIONARIES OF CHRIST: Thank you.
KEYES: The first question I would like to put to you, because I thought it would be good to have you on because all this talk about celibacy and the role it plays or doesn't play in the vow case of Catholic priests, I thought it would be good to let somebody who has the vocation and has it in a sense, if I may say so, that shows the greatest joy, the greatest peace about your life, your vocation, it just is spread all around you and the work that you do, and it's been something that has deeply impressed me. I want you to talk to folks a little bit about the meaning of celibacy to you in the context of that vocation.
SLINEY: OK, thank you, Alan. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to be on the show to speak for the good, solid priests who are in this country. There are millions. There is a small percentage that has cast that stain, you might say that shadow of suspicion on the priesthood.
I know many priests who are very faithful, very happy, and I'm one of them. I wake up every morning and thank God for this great gift of the priesthood, for this unbelievable grace to be a priest of God, helping him to save souls and bring people to heaven.
I remember when I was a young man thinking about joining the priesthood, I had gone through high school and went to Michigan State University and dated several girls and had a very active social life. And I always thought to myself, not being married is going to be difficult and I wonder what it's going to be like to be a priest forever and not to be married. I went to my pastor and I asked him, father, is it difficult for you not to be married, is it difficult for you to give of yourself totally to others and to Christ and never have that sense of intimacy with a woman, with a family?
He said, sure, it is difficult. But I have to say that my love for Christ and love for souls is much higher. It's a higher form of love, it is a greater form of love, it is a more dedicated form of love. And I have to be honest, if I was married now with seven or eight kids, I would not be able to give of myself to others and to God if I didn't have this great gift of celibacy. I'm not taking away from the sacrifice. I know many of my fellow priests also dated girls and we do feel that attraction, but we feel a greater attraction to God and a greater attraction to saving souls.
KEYES: That, I think, is the thing that I find most important because a lot of people act as if this is just giving up something. In fact, it's about a total dedication to God. And that, in point of fact, then becomes the context in which all other things are seen in their perspective. I think in the discussion, they act as if it's all just about giving up and sacrifice and what you don't do and so forth, and the positive aspect of that relationship with God is it seems to me completely neglected in the usual discussion. Yet from what you say it seems to be the central important fact of your life.
SLINEY: I would say, Alan, the real mystery which I think people have a hard time understanding in this country is the prayer life of a priest. Pope Paul VI was asked, why are so many people leaving the priesthood? After (UNINTELLIGIBLE) many other problems in the church, his response was that priests aren't praying enough. I think that's also the response this pope would give today. There's a lack of holiness. We need to strive to be holier, we need to find that love for Christ in the Eucharist. We need to discover that sublime love, that higher love that really fills our heart in the Eucharist that as you said, gives us peace.
KEYES: We still have with us our previous guests, Keith Fournier and founder and president of Common Good. And Mike Barnicle, an MSNBC commentator. I would quickly, Mike, I'll throw the floor to you, first, but I want to just say that I think you sold the pope short when you were talking about his statement.
He clearly outlined the principle that has to govern us in deciding what's right and what's wrong here. He told us the grievous evil that was involved and, yes, gave the path to correcting it when he said the clergy and all of us have to renew our total dedication to God, which is the first step in dealing with this crisis. Why don't you understand the deep substance that was offered us in defining the evil and defining the good path that must lead us out of the evil?
BARNICLE: I guess I didn't pay attention to the pope over the weekend, Alan. But let me tell you, Father Mike has raised perhaps one of the most integral aspects of this entire sordid situation, and that is the fact that there are a tremendous number of priests throughout this world, not only in this country, who go out every single day, they are in the forgiveness business, the business of helping people that very few people offer assistance to.
I've never been anywhere in the world, from Vietnam to the Middle East, to this country, New York, Chicago, Boston, where I have not first gone to a parish and seen a pastor about the problems in the specific neighborhood. Where are the poor people located? Where are the people located who need help? And I don't care where it is, where you go, you're going to find catholic priests.
Father Michael Judge died on September 11 seen in the documentary on CBS a couple weeks ago praying for the firemen in the lobby of the World Trade Center just before he himself perished. He is death certificate No. 1 on September 11. The tragedy of this entire situation is that all of these good priests have been brutalized by the hypocrisy and the arrogance of a hierarchy that ran from this problem and has been running from the problem for decades. That is really a true tragedy in this situation.
KEYES: Keith Fournier, in listening to Father Mike and Mike Barnicle, the question that keeps going through my mind and heart is we see, I think, the wrong, and even though Mike may or may not see it, I think we all share a common heart in reaction to the outrageous wrong. But we have got to find a basis for what is positive here. The pope had a call for renewal in his statement. You should have paid attention, Mike. Keith...
BARNICLE: What do you mean by renewal? What kind of renewal?
KEYES: Hold on.
BARNICLE: What about accountability first? What about accountability?
KEYES: Keith Fournier, what is that path to renewal? What is going to be the basis for it, in your opinion?
FOURNIER: Well, I think father really hit the most important thing, and that's prayer. And not to underestimate the real spiritual battle going on right now. Not only do priests need to pray more, but every one of us needs to pray more.
Mike is right. There are so many wonderful priests and the dark cloud of suspicion has harmed them as well. But I think we make a mistake if we try to paint celibacy as the problem. Celibacy is a gift, a tremendous blessing, and the idea that somehow it's antiquated, it's always been countercultural. I happen to be a married clergyman, I am not a priest, but I am a deacon, and I love marriage — 26 years.
What we're missing is that both marriage and celibacy participated in a higher good, the nuptial mystery, the call we all have to give ourselves away in love. That is what the pope has been teaching, and if we would listen to what he's saying, he gave, Alan, a whole year, even more than a year of lessons called “The Wednesday Catechesis” and it has been compiled in a book called the “Theology Of The Body.”
There's so much rich beautiful teaching on the dignity of human sexuality and on recovering what has been lost. You know, we in a utilitarian age and we are acting the same way in the church when we see the problem as somehow men being deprived of being able to engage in sexual acts. That's absurd.
The problem we are facing right now has nothing to do with celibacy. It has to do with what the pope rightly called the mystery of evil, and it has to be exposed. Mike, I don't think anybody disagrees with you. It needs to be exposed and prosecuted, but the church is the way out, not the problem. The church's renewal is the key not only to the church but to the world rediscovering the sanctity, the dignity, and the beauty of human sexuality.
KEYES: One of the things you said though, Keith, is one of the points that I think is most important here, and it's connected, I think, Mike Barnicle with the accountability of the prelates. It's not only the accountability for the particular decisions they took here, but for the fact that some of them, in my opinion, have, in fact, neglected the providential gift of wisdom that the pope has represented, have not understood and applied the theology of the body, have not turned folks in their diocese to the work of developing the curriculum for the seminaries and the schools that would be based on the pope's incredible and unique insights on this key and critical challenge to morality in our time.
The work has been done by the holy father. I don't think that the prelates and the American Catholic church have respected it and implemented it and applied it in anything like the way it deserves. And that, too, beyond pointing fingers, and talking about the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that's part of the accountability crisis.
Accountability for the formation of priests and for that doctrine which ought to reflect Catholic theology in that formation to empower them to deal with these issues in a positive way, not in the world's way. The world says they are giving up something. The pope knows they are receiving a great gift from God and that should be the basis of their formation. Father, that's what I see, I guess, in the formation that you express. That sense that your vocation is not a negative but a positive gift from God. How did you come to that sense of the positive meaning of your vocation?
SLINEY: Well, and I have to say that being a young priest and knowing a lot of the young priests who are coming out of seminaries today, I think there are a lot of really good, solid guys and we all pretty much feel that the holy father is the ideal priest. We've seen that in the pope, we have seen his commitment, we have seen his prayer, we have seen his dedication.
I think the future of this country and the future of our American church the Catholic church is in our young priests who are coming out today. And they are on fire and they are on their knees praying and they are giving of themselves to others and to God. I know priests working 11-hour days, celebrating three or four funerals a week, and they're on their knees praying even though they're exhausted. We look at the holy father as an example of that holiness that he is calling for. You talked about a reform, you talked about a renewal, you talk about a fresh breath of air coming through the church, we are that fresh breath of air. There is hope and it will happen.
KEYES: Mike Barnicle, what's your response to that? I think that Father Mike is pointing in a positive direction to the kind of path the pope did lay out. That's what he was talking about in his statement, short as it was. It was to the point. Doesn't that make sense?
BARNICLE: My response to that, Alan, is, with all due respect to the pope, and I can't believe I'm saying this now and I hope my mother's not watching this now, but with all due respect to the pope, people like yourself, Alan, not Father Mike, but people like yourself ought to listen more to the sidewalk, listen more to the parishioners alongside you.
There is a tremendous disconnect between practicing and faithful Catholics today and the hierarchy of the American church as well as to the pope in Rome. A huge disconnect that is very troubling and very dangerous in the short term and the long term. And unless the Catholic church takes a...
KEYES: Mike, hold on one second. You have to tell me what you mean by this because I don't quite understand.
BARNICLE: You mean what I said swept over your head the way the pope's thing went over my head?
KEYES: What you just said, needs to be clarified. What are you talking about, the disconnect? Where do you see it? Give me specifics.
BARNICLE: I'll give you a specific, the fact that 16- and 17-year-old young Catholic boys sit in too many churches in this country and snicker at sermons by the priest, that they won't go on overnight retreats for confirmation, that they are suspicious of priests today, that their parents are even more suspicious.
KEYES: This is the problem. We'll come back. We are going to come back and have a final word from each of you, but I have to tell you, if the serious response you're making here is that we're going to replace the holy father's judgment with the snickering judgment of teenagers in the pews, I feel sorry for the church that you would be in charge of, I got to tell you.
We'll be back right after these words.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEYES: Given the intensity of this issue and its importance, we're breaking with the usual format of the program tonight. I wanted to give each of my guests each one minute to complete their thought on the program because it's been a fascinating discussion. We've had a lot of important points of view expressed. Let me start with you, Mike Barnicle. You have one minute — go.
BARNICLE: Which thought?
KEYES: Whatever.
BARNICLE: I have many. My principal thought, Alan, is that at baptism we were all given the gift of faith as Catholics. I still have that gift of faith, despite what has happened in my church, despite what I think will only increase in the days and weeks ahead. And hopefully I represent, I think, a lot of ordinary people who still have their faith in the institution.
I think it's important to separate the institution of the church from the individuals who have been responsible for committing crimes, crimes against children, rapes of children. And I think also that many people, Catholics and other people, as well, look at this situation and ask the logical question — why is it that so many cardinals and bishops and people of great importance in our society refuse to recognize the wrong of what happened and report it for what it was, a crime — a felony?
KEYES: Thank you, Mike Barnicle. Father Mike, last word. You have one minute.
SLINEY: Yes, Alan. First of all, I'd like to say this is a great time to be a priest, a challenging time, it is a time, a little bit of suffering to be a priest. But I think it's a time when we can really look at our priesthood and understand that we're called to follow Christ, we are called sometimes to be the crucified Christ.
I personally have a tremendous respect for bishops, a tremendous respect for the hierarchy and the pope. That's why I became a priest, because I believe the holy spirit will work through them. Maybe there were some mistakes. Maybe there are some human weaknesses, but at large, the hierarchy is a very stable, strong, and committed institution that is truly looking for the salvation of souls and the good of the church. I think we need to look at the majority of the priests and the majority of the hierarchy that are spending their life, their time, their blood, sweat, for the good of so many people that are never offered a word of gratitude or thanks. We have to remember them during these troubled times.
KEYES: Keith Fournier, what is your final thought. You have one minute.
FOURNIER: Alan, I believe that there is darkness before dawn, and this is holy week. And the message of this week is the message for the church. The darkness is being exposed, and I think on the other side of it it may be Friday, but Sunday is coming. I think we need to have outrage, we need to have action, and we need to have prosecution.
But more than anything, we need prayer and we need hope. Contrary to what Mike said earlier, I think father is a great example of what's going on. There's a ground-up renewal going on in the church, there is a new springtime, and many of the movements, legionaries, Opus Day, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and you go on and on, are coming from the people, and they are the finger of God and the hope for the future of this church. The Catholic church, can, must, will recover.
KEYES: Mike Barnicle, response to that? Quickly.
BARNICLE: Well, you know, we all pray every day for the light to keep on shining. And I see the light, I always go for the light, I am optimistic and I'm sure that the church will have better days.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: God bless you, Mike.
KEYES: I want to thank all of you for being on tonight. I know it is a difficult time for all of us and I think the kind of frankness, honesty, the sincerity of heart I felt on this program tonight is going to be something that's needed in the light of God's grace and will to get through this for all of us who are people of faith.
I want to thank all of you for coming on and in the truest sense of the term sharing your hearts with us tonight. I will have a final thought on tonight's program in a moment. I hope you all will stay tuned to hear what I have to say. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEYES: Listening to the discussion tonight, I have to tell you, I shared Mike Barnicle's sense of outrage. I surely did. You probably saw it in the interview I had with the archbishop. I was not satisfied with the response that no one's to be held accountable. These were just mistakes. Yes, they were, but they had grave consequences, they raise grave questions that I think have to be addressed.
I also disagree with Mike in the sense that somehow or another we put aside the authority that is represented in the hierarchy in the church, not because it belongs to these human beings, no, but because in the end, we have to remember God is sovereign, he's in charge. All of us at the end, it's not about our feelings or what has happened to us in any sense, but it's about I believe what plan he has for us and for the world. And we are just part of that.
That means that all of us have to be willing to step aside. And that's one of the reasons I think folks in the hierarchy have to see that truth. Somebody has to be willing to step aside so God's grace can be clearly seen here. I believe that within the context of the Catholic church that grace has already been given us and the holy father whose understanding of these sexual matters is the deepest I think we've had in a contribution in the church's history.
I hope the American hierarchy will be awakened by this crisis to take a hard look at that and begin to mine that rich treasure for its application in the formation of priests and the formation of the Catholic young and in the influence all of us should have for a positive role in the world. That's my sense of it. Thanks.
The NEWS WITH BRIAN WILLIAMS is up next. See you tomorrow.
As you probably have noticed, the interest and the tension that's being given in the media to the growing scandal within the Catholic Church involving misconduct among priests with young children, accusations of sexual misconduct, now concerns about whether or not prelates in the church were involved in conduct that could be construed as actually trying to keep this conduct from the authorities. This reached a crest over the weekend. Letters were sent to many — dioceses and parishes, read ride priests from the pulpit in place of sermons.
I myself, will be pointing out a little later, in our own church parish, we saw some very moving moments in presentations from the priest who said mass and letters from our parish priest. I think every Catholic in the country is going, as we enter into this holiest week of the Catholic season, through a trying and a time of great grief and pain for all of us.
Once again, tonight we will be focusing in the program on the issues, the painful, difficult issues that are raised by this crisis. And that I think need to be dealt with the greatest care, the greatest compassion, but also the greatest honesty that we can muster in the best interest, not only of the church but of all those issues, I care deeply about, that require that there be integrity in the moral stance and judgment of the church in confidence in its credibility.
Well, up front tonight, Archbishop John Foley, who is the president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for Social Communications is joining us. I spoke to him earlier today, he came from Rome, and I asked him whether he believed that some of the church's prelates had in fact engaged in conduct that in any other institution would be considered a cover-up.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN FOLEY, ARCHBISHOP, VATICAN SPOKESPERSON: I don't want to put myself in their shoes for decisions which were made 25 or 30 years ago. I think one of the things is that we also believe in the possibility of repentance, and sometimes a bishop as a spiritual father will receive somebody who says I made a terrible mistake, I'm sorry, give me another chance. And there's a natural tendency or a supernatural tendency, I guess, to be compassionate and to say all right. And if the individual has been given clearance by those who work in psychology and psychiatry who say he's cured, he won't do this again, then they take a chance. And as we know...
KEYES: But your grace.
(CROSSTALK)
FOLEY: ... now, that was a mistake.
KEYES: Your grace, part of the problem, though, that I see is that in dealing with sexual matters, the church can not accept the understanding of modern psychology and modern psychiatry, which regard human sexuality as if it is simply a bodily function, apart from God, apart from grace, apart from the account of gender that is given in the scripture and has been embraced by the church.
Doesn't — don't the decisions of the prelates in the church have to reflect the sacred understanding of human sexuality, and respond to these things in accord with that understanding?
FOLEY: That is true. And obviously they never said that these individuals were doing the right thing. What they were saying is that the individuals did do something which was seriously wrong. The priests were sent for some type of medical treatment, also in addition to a period of penance. And then it was presumed that they had been both healed spiritually and psychologically, which turned out not to be the case. And that's the terrible mistake that was made, and I think that the victims in that case suffered greatly, because they probably saw these individuals being reassigned and they say, what's wrong here?
KEYES: But at the end of the day, I think one of the problems is; can there, in fact, be a healing if there is no visible accountability? And that visible accountability, just as it would anywhere else in the world. When Bill Clinton was involved in all the scandal, many of us thought he should resign, and the lack of visible accountability hurt the country. Won't a lack of visible accountability prevent the kind of healing that needs to occur in the church?
FOLEY: I think you have had visible accountability. Those who have been responsible for the actions have been removed from office. People are attempting to root out from the church any people who have been involved in such activity. Now, I think what you mean is those who had left them or transferred those individuals to other positions should also leave office, but there's a big difference between an objectively immoral act, which is terribly scandalous, and a mistake in judgment, which is also based upon the fact that the individual who made the mistake in judgment thought that the situation had been cured and that the individuals who had performed the malicious act were themselves repentant.
KEYES: I agree with that. But I think that here we're talking about two different aspects of the situation. There is an objectively moral evil, but there is also grave damage to the credibility and authority of the church. Grave pain that is caused. My parish priest who was saying mass, young priest yesterday, who was being approached by people and asked if he is not ashamed to wear the collar of his priesthood. And of course he responded with courage that this was his marriage band, and he would wear it till he died. But the fact that mistaken judgments have caused this kind of deep pain must mean a question about, not the goodness, but the competence of those who made the judgment. And no institution can survive if it is unwilling to hold incompetence accountable. And that is true of the church.
We're not talking here of a judgment about the morality of the prelates, but a judgment about whether or not, having, in fact, made deep errors that led to this kind of deep wound, it is not necessary that they be held accountable if their authority. And can they go on holding that authority, exercising it on behalf of the church when so grave a question mark is now behind their judgment?
FOLEY: Well, a number of people, all of us throughout life make mistakes, especially mistakes in judgment. And I think that one of the things is we learn from our mistakes, I would hope. So, I don't think you can say that somebody who has made a mistake in judgment or a serious mistake in judgment or mistakes in judgment can be held to be incompetent to exercise authority if that individual has shown himself to be willing to learn from the mistakes which he made.
KEYES: Sadly, your grace, I think part of the question mark is that when an individual was out there when they had committed this kind of transgression, when you had accepted their statement of forgiveness, when they transgressed again and again, you have already made repeated mistakes in judgment that suggest that you can not learn from your experience. And that something deeper is needed to form and instruct that judgment, and to leave an individual in a high position of authority when that kind of doubt exists, it seems to me it will aggravate the perception that there is a grave untreated problem in the church.
It does damage, not necessarily to the depths or the core of the church's moral standing but to the credibility of its authority, which also has to be dealt with. I speak now from the point of view of a deeply grieved layman in the Catholic Church, and I don't see how that wound can be healed if the prelates are not held accountable, along with the priests.
FOLEY: They are held accountable but it's one thing to be held accountable and say why did you do this, and if the individual says I made a mistake, I'm sorry, I thought the individual was sorry. Obviously, he wasn't, because he did it again, I erred gravely. I will try to reform my life in that way to make sounder judgments, and to remove anyone I know who has this problem from any position in which he could have any contact with young people. And not have this individual exercise the priesthood in the future.
KEYES: Your grace.
FOLEY: So, I think there's a real difference —
KEYES: Your grace.
FOLEY: Yes. Hello. I'm still here.
KEYES: I asked a question like this of someone on the show the other day; if the same mistake had been made about priests who physically assaulted and killed children, would we have the same lack of urgency about the need to correct this mistake in judgment? And, yet, according to the church's teaching, Christ has told us that we should not fear those who simply harm the body. We should more fear those or the one who can damage body and soul in hell.
Now, it seems to me that the moral scandal ought to be more serious to the church than any physical assault would be. And yet it is not being dealt with. I can't believe that you'd believe prelates should be left in place if they had allowed serial murderers to physically kill children, and yet they have allowed people to endanger what we believers deeply believe to be more important than their physical selves. And that's what I've told my children all my life. And I just don't understand what we're supposed to do with our kids if the church doesn't take clear and visible steps to correct this undermining of its authority.
FOLEY: The church has taken clear and visible steps as far as I can say. I know from this viewpoint here in Rome and from what I saw in the United States just last week, individuals have been — any priest involved in such activity, any complaint, any credible complaint that has been brought forth has been responded to and all priests who have been engaged in such activities have been removed from the active ministry.
So, I think that's a clear action to remove the source of scandal. Things have happened in the past, certainly. And there were mistakes in judgment, certainly. But I think it's clear that the church has made a real effort to remove from the active ministry anybody who has in any way harmed innocent children.
KEYES: I think — you know, I come from the perspective — I know worldly politics where the standards are actually lower than they need to be, I think, for the clergy. But even there, back when Richard Nixon got involved with covering up deeds he hadn't done, he hadn't been involved in, objectively speaking, in any of the wrongdoing, but he had been willing to connive at a cover-up.
And I'm sorry, your grace, it appears from the point of view of those standing without — and I'm thinking now not just of people in the church, but others in other denominations, in other — this looks like people who connived at a cover-up who are going to be left in place, and it seems to me that is going to do grave, deep damage to the credibility of the church. It seems to me those who really cared and who really felt the depth of that mistake in judgment would take it upon themselves, in fact, to do what Nixon did, and stand down, not just because of that mistake in judgment but in order to give in perception as well as reality an opportunity for healing.
FOLEY: Well, I don't think you saw in the case of any of the prelates now who perhaps had made these mistakes in judgment in permitting people back into the active practice of the priesthood after having been advised that these individuals were healed and that these — having been told that they were repentant. That's a lot different than your comparison with Nixon, where there had been an objective wrong done in order to contribute to his re-election. In a sense, he conspired to attempt to cover up the action which contributed to his re-election.
So, I think that there was a participation in the evil there, if we may say that. I hate to make the same comparison with the political and spiritual world. But I do think in the case of the bishops, while they made mistakes in judgment, they were trying to I guess satisfy those two values of protecting the innocent and of believing that people could repent of their sins. So, they were caught in that for individuals who had not repented, were not truly sorry or were not capable of repenting from their sins.
KEYES: Your grace, we have come to the end of our time. I want to thank you for the frank exchange we've been able to have. I think all of us, people inside and outside the Catholic church, are going through a period of tremendous pain and grief. I know that I felt almost a physical pain of this young priest yesterday, brought tears to my eyes and my heart. I think that we know at this time of Easter that with God, there is great hope and renewal. The pope has called for that in his statement.
And I deeply believe that if we wholeheartedly commit ourselves to the true path of faith, that renewal is a grace from God and we will join you in praying that will be the case for all of us.
FOLEY: I thank you, Mr. Keyes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KEYES: That was my interview earlier today with Archbishop John Foley. He came to us from the Vatican. He's a Vatican spokesman. Obviously, a very intense, a difficult subject. I really appreciated his willingness to engage in a frank exchange and conversation about it to try to get to the heart of the matter.
We're going to continue in that effort as we always do on this program, trying to get to the heart of the matter. We'll answer these questions. First of all, what kind of accountability is needed to restore the credibility of the church? Are top clergy implicated in the scandal? Is resignation or removal the right response? Plus our open phone line segment. Call me at 1-866-KEYES-USA with whatever is on your mind. You're watching MSNBC, the best news on cable.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEYES: “Newsweek” just released a poll on the Catholic church. Seventy percent of Americans, including Catholics and non-Catholics responded saying the Catholic church has been too lenient in dealing with priests who sexually abuse children and young people. The poll also asks whether married men should be allowed to be priests. We'll give you the results in our next half-hour and have a serious debate on the issue.
A reminder, K.Z. says the Catholic church is like any other institution, full of human beings and they all have pedophiles, coaches, teachers, everyone. That's, of course, atour chat.msnbc site. You can join in right now at CHAT.MSNBC.COM.
But first, we're talking about how the Catholic church can recover from this current crisis. Joining us now to get to the heart of the matter is Keith Fournier, the president and founder of Common Good, an organization dedicated to promoting Christian social values. He is also a married Catholic deacon. Also with us, Mike Barnicle, columnist for the “New York Daily News”, radio talk show host and MSNBC commentator. Welcome gentlemen to MAKING SENSE.
KEITH FOURNIER, FOUNDER & PRESIDENT, COMMON GOOD: Thank you.
KEYES: Let me start first with Mike Barnicle. Since I understand, Mike, that you have looked at this crisis. Like a lot of folks, you I think have reacted with a both intense passion and grief. What is your sense of what is required in order to achieve the kind of accountability that could begin to undo the damage that has been done to the church's credibility?
MIKE BARNICLE, “NEW YORK DAILY NEWS”: Well, Alan, I think it's pretty clear. I think that you alluded to it in your discussion with Archbishop Foley earlier in the hour, and it's literally the Vatican on down has to open the windows of the Catholic church and let the breeze of the 21st century blow in.
And in that wind, there has got to be accountability. There's got to be accountability for what has happened in the past. There's got to be — there's got to be a removal of the sense of aloofness and isolation of the American Catholic church hierarchy from the faithful. Yesterday was Palm Sunday in Catholic churches across this country, and you had the reading of the long gospel. Included in the reading of the long gospel was the betrayal of Jesus Christ himself.
I went to church yesterday at St. Ignatius Loyola on the campus of Boston College. There were 2,000 people in that church, many of them young. They were of all backgrounds, Asian, Hispanic, black, white. The faithful are still faithful. The hierarchy have got to listen to the fact that the church belongs to the people, not to someone wearing a red hat. No one goes to church to see Cardinal Egan or Cardinal Law. We go to church to worship, and the faithful have to be paid attention to.
KEYES: Keith, what do you think is the path that might lead to healing and renovation in the wake of this scandal? Obviously posing some very tough and difficult questions of accountability for both priests and the hierarchy. What's the path to take?
FOURNIER: First of all, Alan, thanks for expressing outrage. We need to hear more of that because our hearts are broken and we have to seriously examine this. You began tonight the way we should begin, with outrage. But I think we also ought to move towards prayer, towards repentance. There's a moniker at the bottom of the screen on the show tonight, “can the Catholicism recover?” Of course it can.
The gates of hell will not prevail against the church. This is not the first time in history that we have seen this kind of scandal hit the clergy, and with all due respect to Mike, I grew up in Dorchester, I like you, I respect you...
BARNICLE: What parish?
FOURNIER: St. Matthews, actually, in Dorchester, but the winds are blowing in the church right now, thank God. That's why I think stuff is being exposed. I thank got for John Paul II. I think God for the new evangelization.
BARNICLE: Yes, he stepped right up to the plate the other day, didn't he? One paragraph out of 22 pages, and basically blamed the problem on Warner Brothers' movies.
FOURNIER: Mike, I think that's mistake you're making. He has spoken to it before as well. That paragraph was in his letter to the priest.
BARNICLE: When? When?
FOURNIER: At Oceana, and there has been a lot of other things going on. But let me speak to this point.
BARNICLE: When are they going to realize...
FOURNIER: Mike, I am a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) too, my friend. Look, I'm a member of the hierarchy, lowest rung, a deacon, but nonetheless, this linkage is a big mistake. We have a crisis here. We have to deal with it. You're trying to link all of your desired changes in the church as if, for example, getting rid of celibacy is going to fix the problem of homosexualization, or all of that.
BARNICLE: Let's get to that later and deal with the fact that the American hierarchy...
FOURNIER: Mike, I'm dealing with it and you know what? I don't think it's a time for just saying that people who wear red hats are not why we go to church. I think we should be praying for the people who wear red hats and shouldn't be pointing the finger in the wrong way.
BARNICLE: They have been pointing the finger at American Catholics every Sunday, wagging the finger from the pulpit when they don't know when they don't know the difference between right and wrong.
FOURNIER: I don't know where you're going to mass, I don't know where you are going to mass.
BARNICLE: Let me ask you a question.
FOURNIER: Sure.
BARNICLE: Is pedophilia, the rape of a child, a crime?
FOURNIER: Of course it is. I'm a lawyer 22 years...
BARNICLE: Why is it not reported?
FOURNIER: Listen, I don't disagree with you on this. I call for full disclosure, zero tolerance, prosecution. That's not the issue.
BARNICLE: If that's not the issue...
FOURNIER: What I'm taking umbrage with is your effort right now to do a linkage to say it's a matter if the red hats.
KEYES: Mike, let him finish, and then we'll get back to you. Mike, let Keith finish and then you will have your opportunity.
BARNICLE: If we let Keith finish we will be here till midnight.
KEYES: Please, go ahead, Keith. Finish up.
FOURNIER: Absolutely. My point is we should take this as an opportunity for looking at this problem with honesty, with crystal clarity, the full extent of the law. We should have prosecutions if need be. But this effort of trying to squeeze into this crisis everyone's agenda for what should change in the church is not going to help the victims, it's not going to help the church, and it's not going to move us forward, which is most important.
KEYES: Now, if I can put a word in, Mike, before I give you back the floor, I didn't take umbrage exactly, but I would have to disagree with one formulation, that the church does not belong to the people or to the prelates. It is the church of Jesus Christ and it belongs to Christ, to almighty God, and all of us who are part of it are members of his church, which belongs to him.
I think part of the problem here is that people are forgetting this. They're acting like it's about human beings. This is about God's way and God's will and whether some people who took a vow that they would act with integrity according to that will have in fact respected that vow at all levels. I think it is very important to remember that. We can't run the church by vote and neither I think can we run the church by mistaken judgments that don't take account of the teachings that the hierarchy have down through the years professed to be the central core teachings of the church.
So, I think in one respect we have to be careful not to look at this crisis as if it's some kind of emancipation from the discipline of faith, because it can't be — Mike Barnicle.
BARNICLE: You know, I have no idea what both of you guys are talking about. There is a right and a wrong. When you go to parochial school from the first grade on, when you're raised by Catholic parents, you're taught that there's a difference between a right and a wrong. And the right thing to do is to report the rape of a child no matter who committed it. It's not to cover it up. It's not to bring the families in and offer them some hush money and some confidentiality agreement to sign. That's wrong. That's wrong. OK?
KEYES: Absolutely. Mike, Mike, I don't understand what you're saying. Nobody, especially me, has disagreed with that. And the suggestion that anybody has I will take umbrage at.
BARNICLE: You can take all the umbrage you want.
KEYES: Excuse me. Excuse me. Unless you weren't watching, I pressed that exact point with Archbishop Foley and pressed it to an extent that I don't think anybody else has yet.
BARNICLE: Why did you call him your grace? Why did you call him that?
KEYES: The truth of the matter is, Mike...
BARNICLE: Why did you call Archbishop Foley your grace?
KEYES: I don't believe that anything about this requires that those of us who are Catholic believers lose our sense of respect for ourselves, our faith, our God, and the tenants that we have professed all our lives.
BARNICLE: What about the members of the church who have lost respect for the parishioners?
KEYES: One of those tenets is in fact respect for the authority of God and his word, and I'll continue to follow it. But the truth of the matter is, if we are to have that kind of accountability, then the first thing we have to remember is what the pope himself reminded us of and I was glad he did. You misunderstood his statement the other day.
BARNICLE: I guess I must have. It went right over my head. All one paragraph of it.
KEYES: He laid down hard and fast the most important thing that needs to be understood right now, what is the standard of truth in dealing with this. He defined the issue as the most grievous possible sin and he also laid out the right path to deal with it.
So, you're talking about the difference between right and wrong. That can't be understood apart from God. It's not what you say or what I say. It's what God says. And that requires discipline and order to both understand and accept the truth. That's what the pope is calling us to.
BARNICLE: I must have missed, Alan, the path the pope alluded to in my reading of the pope's statement, and also must have missed it when you were speaking to Archbishop Foley or Archbishop Foley probably would have said to you, the pope's path was to remove people responsible for the problem. Weren't you just discussing that with the archbishop?
FOURNIER: Mike, I don't know if you saw Cardinal (UNINTELLIGIBLE) comments...
KEYES: Hold on one second. We are coming up against a break. We are all going to come back. Don't get frustrated. We will be right back and have a chance to move further into this. I have to say, Mike, I'm going to take a minute or two to show you that, yes, apparently the pope's statement did go over your head. But we will get there when we get back. We're going to discuss whether priests should be allowed to marry, among other things. And we are going to be joined by one of my favorite priests, Father Michael Slivey, who is with the legionnaires of Christ. Later we'll get to what's on your mind on any topic. You can call us at 1-866-Keyes-U.S.A. Sit tight. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEYES: Welcome back to MAKING SENSE. I'm Alan Keyes. Should catholic priests be allowed to marry? This question is raised in the context of the ongoing scandal. And the recent Newsweek” poll, 70 percent of Americans both Catholic and non Catholic said it would be a good thing if married men were allowed to be ordained as priests in the Catholic Church.
Now, I happen to believe that that's totally wrong. It makes me glad the church is not run by polls conducted by “Newsweek.” Joining us now, and I want to talk to him about the context of this question, joining me now is one of my favorite priests, somebody I have known now over the course of several years. He has been an important part in my life and the life of my family and my eldest son in particular. He's a member of the Legionaries of Christ, a religious Roman Catholic congregation founded in 1941 to motivate Catholics to take a more active part in the life of the church. His name is Michael Sliney. Welcome, Father Mike, thanks for joining us tonight.
FATHER MICHAEL SLINEY, LEGIONARIES OF CHRIST: Thank you.
KEYES: The first question I would like to put to you, because I thought it would be good to have you on because all this talk about celibacy and the role it plays or doesn't play in the vow case of Catholic priests, I thought it would be good to let somebody who has the vocation and has it in a sense, if I may say so, that shows the greatest joy, the greatest peace about your life, your vocation, it just is spread all around you and the work that you do, and it's been something that has deeply impressed me. I want you to talk to folks a little bit about the meaning of celibacy to you in the context of that vocation.
SLINEY: OK, thank you, Alan. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to be on the show to speak for the good, solid priests who are in this country. There are millions. There is a small percentage that has cast that stain, you might say that shadow of suspicion on the priesthood.
I know many priests who are very faithful, very happy, and I'm one of them. I wake up every morning and thank God for this great gift of the priesthood, for this unbelievable grace to be a priest of God, helping him to save souls and bring people to heaven.
I remember when I was a young man thinking about joining the priesthood, I had gone through high school and went to Michigan State University and dated several girls and had a very active social life. And I always thought to myself, not being married is going to be difficult and I wonder what it's going to be like to be a priest forever and not to be married. I went to my pastor and I asked him, father, is it difficult for you not to be married, is it difficult for you to give of yourself totally to others and to Christ and never have that sense of intimacy with a woman, with a family?
He said, sure, it is difficult. But I have to say that my love for Christ and love for souls is much higher. It's a higher form of love, it is a greater form of love, it is a more dedicated form of love. And I have to be honest, if I was married now with seven or eight kids, I would not be able to give of myself to others and to God if I didn't have this great gift of celibacy. I'm not taking away from the sacrifice. I know many of my fellow priests also dated girls and we do feel that attraction, but we feel a greater attraction to God and a greater attraction to saving souls.
KEYES: That, I think, is the thing that I find most important because a lot of people act as if this is just giving up something. In fact, it's about a total dedication to God. And that, in point of fact, then becomes the context in which all other things are seen in their perspective. I think in the discussion, they act as if it's all just about giving up and sacrifice and what you don't do and so forth, and the positive aspect of that relationship with God is it seems to me completely neglected in the usual discussion. Yet from what you say it seems to be the central important fact of your life.
SLINEY: I would say, Alan, the real mystery which I think people have a hard time understanding in this country is the prayer life of a priest. Pope Paul VI was asked, why are so many people leaving the priesthood? After (UNINTELLIGIBLE) many other problems in the church, his response was that priests aren't praying enough. I think that's also the response this pope would give today. There's a lack of holiness. We need to strive to be holier, we need to find that love for Christ in the Eucharist. We need to discover that sublime love, that higher love that really fills our heart in the Eucharist that as you said, gives us peace.
KEYES: We still have with us our previous guests, Keith Fournier and founder and president of Common Good. And Mike Barnicle, an MSNBC commentator. I would quickly, Mike, I'll throw the floor to you, first, but I want to just say that I think you sold the pope short when you were talking about his statement.
He clearly outlined the principle that has to govern us in deciding what's right and what's wrong here. He told us the grievous evil that was involved and, yes, gave the path to correcting it when he said the clergy and all of us have to renew our total dedication to God, which is the first step in dealing with this crisis. Why don't you understand the deep substance that was offered us in defining the evil and defining the good path that must lead us out of the evil?
BARNICLE: I guess I didn't pay attention to the pope over the weekend, Alan. But let me tell you, Father Mike has raised perhaps one of the most integral aspects of this entire sordid situation, and that is the fact that there are a tremendous number of priests throughout this world, not only in this country, who go out every single day, they are in the forgiveness business, the business of helping people that very few people offer assistance to.
I've never been anywhere in the world, from Vietnam to the Middle East, to this country, New York, Chicago, Boston, where I have not first gone to a parish and seen a pastor about the problems in the specific neighborhood. Where are the poor people located? Where are the people located who need help? And I don't care where it is, where you go, you're going to find catholic priests.
Father Michael Judge died on September 11 seen in the documentary on CBS a couple weeks ago praying for the firemen in the lobby of the World Trade Center just before he himself perished. He is death certificate No. 1 on September 11. The tragedy of this entire situation is that all of these good priests have been brutalized by the hypocrisy and the arrogance of a hierarchy that ran from this problem and has been running from the problem for decades. That is really a true tragedy in this situation.
KEYES: Keith Fournier, in listening to Father Mike and Mike Barnicle, the question that keeps going through my mind and heart is we see, I think, the wrong, and even though Mike may or may not see it, I think we all share a common heart in reaction to the outrageous wrong. But we have got to find a basis for what is positive here. The pope had a call for renewal in his statement. You should have paid attention, Mike. Keith...
BARNICLE: What do you mean by renewal? What kind of renewal?
KEYES: Hold on.
BARNICLE: What about accountability first? What about accountability?
KEYES: Keith Fournier, what is that path to renewal? What is going to be the basis for it, in your opinion?
FOURNIER: Well, I think father really hit the most important thing, and that's prayer. And not to underestimate the real spiritual battle going on right now. Not only do priests need to pray more, but every one of us needs to pray more.
Mike is right. There are so many wonderful priests and the dark cloud of suspicion has harmed them as well. But I think we make a mistake if we try to paint celibacy as the problem. Celibacy is a gift, a tremendous blessing, and the idea that somehow it's antiquated, it's always been countercultural. I happen to be a married clergyman, I am not a priest, but I am a deacon, and I love marriage — 26 years.
What we're missing is that both marriage and celibacy participated in a higher good, the nuptial mystery, the call we all have to give ourselves away in love. That is what the pope has been teaching, and if we would listen to what he's saying, he gave, Alan, a whole year, even more than a year of lessons called “The Wednesday Catechesis” and it has been compiled in a book called the “Theology Of The Body.”
There's so much rich beautiful teaching on the dignity of human sexuality and on recovering what has been lost. You know, we in a utilitarian age and we are acting the same way in the church when we see the problem as somehow men being deprived of being able to engage in sexual acts. That's absurd.
The problem we are facing right now has nothing to do with celibacy. It has to do with what the pope rightly called the mystery of evil, and it has to be exposed. Mike, I don't think anybody disagrees with you. It needs to be exposed and prosecuted, but the church is the way out, not the problem. The church's renewal is the key not only to the church but to the world rediscovering the sanctity, the dignity, and the beauty of human sexuality.
KEYES: One of the things you said though, Keith, is one of the points that I think is most important here, and it's connected, I think, Mike Barnicle with the accountability of the prelates. It's not only the accountability for the particular decisions they took here, but for the fact that some of them, in my opinion, have, in fact, neglected the providential gift of wisdom that the pope has represented, have not understood and applied the theology of the body, have not turned folks in their diocese to the work of developing the curriculum for the seminaries and the schools that would be based on the pope's incredible and unique insights on this key and critical challenge to morality in our time.
The work has been done by the holy father. I don't think that the prelates and the American Catholic church have respected it and implemented it and applied it in anything like the way it deserves. And that, too, beyond pointing fingers, and talking about the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that's part of the accountability crisis.
Accountability for the formation of priests and for that doctrine which ought to reflect Catholic theology in that formation to empower them to deal with these issues in a positive way, not in the world's way. The world says they are giving up something. The pope knows they are receiving a great gift from God and that should be the basis of their formation. Father, that's what I see, I guess, in the formation that you express. That sense that your vocation is not a negative but a positive gift from God. How did you come to that sense of the positive meaning of your vocation?
SLINEY: Well, and I have to say that being a young priest and knowing a lot of the young priests who are coming out of seminaries today, I think there are a lot of really good, solid guys and we all pretty much feel that the holy father is the ideal priest. We've seen that in the pope, we have seen his commitment, we have seen his prayer, we have seen his dedication.
I think the future of this country and the future of our American church the Catholic church is in our young priests who are coming out today. And they are on fire and they are on their knees praying and they are giving of themselves to others and to God. I know priests working 11-hour days, celebrating three or four funerals a week, and they're on their knees praying even though they're exhausted. We look at the holy father as an example of that holiness that he is calling for. You talked about a reform, you talked about a renewal, you talk about a fresh breath of air coming through the church, we are that fresh breath of air. There is hope and it will happen.
KEYES: Mike Barnicle, what's your response to that? I think that Father Mike is pointing in a positive direction to the kind of path the pope did lay out. That's what he was talking about in his statement, short as it was. It was to the point. Doesn't that make sense?
BARNICLE: My response to that, Alan, is, with all due respect to the pope, and I can't believe I'm saying this now and I hope my mother's not watching this now, but with all due respect to the pope, people like yourself, Alan, not Father Mike, but people like yourself ought to listen more to the sidewalk, listen more to the parishioners alongside you.
There is a tremendous disconnect between practicing and faithful Catholics today and the hierarchy of the American church as well as to the pope in Rome. A huge disconnect that is very troubling and very dangerous in the short term and the long term. And unless the Catholic church takes a...
KEYES: Mike, hold on one second. You have to tell me what you mean by this because I don't quite understand.
BARNICLE: You mean what I said swept over your head the way the pope's thing went over my head?
KEYES: What you just said, needs to be clarified. What are you talking about, the disconnect? Where do you see it? Give me specifics.
BARNICLE: I'll give you a specific, the fact that 16- and 17-year-old young Catholic boys sit in too many churches in this country and snicker at sermons by the priest, that they won't go on overnight retreats for confirmation, that they are suspicious of priests today, that their parents are even more suspicious.
KEYES: This is the problem. We'll come back. We are going to come back and have a final word from each of you, but I have to tell you, if the serious response you're making here is that we're going to replace the holy father's judgment with the snickering judgment of teenagers in the pews, I feel sorry for the church that you would be in charge of, I got to tell you.
We'll be back right after these words.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEYES: Given the intensity of this issue and its importance, we're breaking with the usual format of the program tonight. I wanted to give each of my guests each one minute to complete their thought on the program because it's been a fascinating discussion. We've had a lot of important points of view expressed. Let me start with you, Mike Barnicle. You have one minute — go.
BARNICLE: Which thought?
KEYES: Whatever.
BARNICLE: I have many. My principal thought, Alan, is that at baptism we were all given the gift of faith as Catholics. I still have that gift of faith, despite what has happened in my church, despite what I think will only increase in the days and weeks ahead. And hopefully I represent, I think, a lot of ordinary people who still have their faith in the institution.
I think it's important to separate the institution of the church from the individuals who have been responsible for committing crimes, crimes against children, rapes of children. And I think also that many people, Catholics and other people, as well, look at this situation and ask the logical question — why is it that so many cardinals and bishops and people of great importance in our society refuse to recognize the wrong of what happened and report it for what it was, a crime — a felony?
KEYES: Thank you, Mike Barnicle. Father Mike, last word. You have one minute.
SLINEY: Yes, Alan. First of all, I'd like to say this is a great time to be a priest, a challenging time, it is a time, a little bit of suffering to be a priest. But I think it's a time when we can really look at our priesthood and understand that we're called to follow Christ, we are called sometimes to be the crucified Christ.
I personally have a tremendous respect for bishops, a tremendous respect for the hierarchy and the pope. That's why I became a priest, because I believe the holy spirit will work through them. Maybe there were some mistakes. Maybe there are some human weaknesses, but at large, the hierarchy is a very stable, strong, and committed institution that is truly looking for the salvation of souls and the good of the church. I think we need to look at the majority of the priests and the majority of the hierarchy that are spending their life, their time, their blood, sweat, for the good of so many people that are never offered a word of gratitude or thanks. We have to remember them during these troubled times.
KEYES: Keith Fournier, what is your final thought. You have one minute.
FOURNIER: Alan, I believe that there is darkness before dawn, and this is holy week. And the message of this week is the message for the church. The darkness is being exposed, and I think on the other side of it it may be Friday, but Sunday is coming. I think we need to have outrage, we need to have action, and we need to have prosecution.
But more than anything, we need prayer and we need hope. Contrary to what Mike said earlier, I think father is a great example of what's going on. There's a ground-up renewal going on in the church, there is a new springtime, and many of the movements, legionaries, Opus Day, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and you go on and on, are coming from the people, and they are the finger of God and the hope for the future of this church. The Catholic church, can, must, will recover.
KEYES: Mike Barnicle, response to that? Quickly.
BARNICLE: Well, you know, we all pray every day for the light to keep on shining. And I see the light, I always go for the light, I am optimistic and I'm sure that the church will have better days.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: God bless you, Mike.
KEYES: I want to thank all of you for being on tonight. I know it is a difficult time for all of us and I think the kind of frankness, honesty, the sincerity of heart I felt on this program tonight is going to be something that's needed in the light of God's grace and will to get through this for all of us who are people of faith.
I want to thank all of you for coming on and in the truest sense of the term sharing your hearts with us tonight. I will have a final thought on tonight's program in a moment. I hope you all will stay tuned to hear what I have to say. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEYES: Listening to the discussion tonight, I have to tell you, I shared Mike Barnicle's sense of outrage. I surely did. You probably saw it in the interview I had with the archbishop. I was not satisfied with the response that no one's to be held accountable. These were just mistakes. Yes, they were, but they had grave consequences, they raise grave questions that I think have to be addressed.
I also disagree with Mike in the sense that somehow or another we put aside the authority that is represented in the hierarchy in the church, not because it belongs to these human beings, no, but because in the end, we have to remember God is sovereign, he's in charge. All of us at the end, it's not about our feelings or what has happened to us in any sense, but it's about I believe what plan he has for us and for the world. And we are just part of that.
That means that all of us have to be willing to step aside. And that's one of the reasons I think folks in the hierarchy have to see that truth. Somebody has to be willing to step aside so God's grace can be clearly seen here. I believe that within the context of the Catholic church that grace has already been given us and the holy father whose understanding of these sexual matters is the deepest I think we've had in a contribution in the church's history.
I hope the American hierarchy will be awakened by this crisis to take a hard look at that and begin to mine that rich treasure for its application in the formation of priests and the formation of the Catholic young and in the influence all of us should have for a positive role in the world. That's my sense of it. Thanks.
The NEWS WITH BRIAN WILLIAMS is up next. See you tomorrow.