Alan Keyes
January 22, 2002

ALAN KEYES, MSNBC HOST: Welcome to MAKING SENSE. I am Alan Keyes. First, we seemed to get off to a pretty good start last night, at least judging by the reaction you all have given us. I want to thank you for the warm response, the wonderful e-mails. I'll be talking a little later about one of the major controversies that emerged in the e-mails that we got, because, folks, we are very free and frank, as I would expect y'all to be, with their comments and remarks.

But I was encouraged greatly, and I need it today, because today we're going to tackle a topic that in some ways is a hopeless task. And I say that advisedly, because what we're going to be looking at in the course of the program is something that, I guess, in a way we're all familiar with, more than familiar. It is deeply and intimately a part of us now. In consequence of the terrible deed that was perpetrated against us on September 11, we have all in this country been confronted with terrible evil. We are familiar with it, as we are familiar with the feel of the wind and the sunshine. It is a thing that is part of the warp and woof of our lives now.

But sometimes we take things for granted that we are that close to. And what we're going to be doing tonight is confronting that evil and asking ourselves questions aimed at trying to reach an understanding of what lay at the heart of it. We're going to try to make sense of it. And of course, down through the ages of human history, what task has, in some ways, been more fruitless than trying to make sense of evil? And yet, it is the lot of human beings that we must, as it is our lot in this nation in this era that has so changed both our daily lives, and to some degree, our hearts.

I want you to look at some of the images from that day now. I want you to take a look at them, so that we can get back to where we were then. And I know that some of us will never forget where we were and how it struck us and how the horror of it opened a yawning pit beneath our hearts, and we fell into the grief and the horror that was the consequence of that terrible day.

I know, being human beings, the day has passed, and naturally it's a little bit perhaps less clear to us than it was then. That's a gift from God, in fact, that helps us to go on, to cope with our daily lives. But I think it's deeply laden within us, and it continues every single day, of course, for the people who are living in New York, who are near ground zero.

I was reminded of this over the Christmas holidays. My son, my eldest, who is now off to college, he called us and asked whether it would be OK if after he had been home for a couple of days of the holidays, he went with a group of young people to help out with the cleanup in the area right around ground zero. And of course, our hearts are moved with joy that he wanted to go and do the Lord's work and share in these acts of mercy and help for our neighbors and friends in New York.

And he went, and talking to him while he was there and when he got back, I've got to tell you, it was one of those things that brought me right back into the midst of it, and made me realize that whatever else was going on for us, it was very real for people who are living in that city every day, living with the terrible reality of the death and the mayhem and the destruction that goes beyond the material things, goes beyond even the physical lives that were lost. Because in the lives of many of the people who continued thereafter in their Christmas this year and in all the years to come, there will be empty places. There will be vacant spots. There will be yawning voids that nothing can quite fill. And this goes on for a lifetime, infinite evil, and from what source?

Well, the consequences of it, of course, go on. And to help us get a feeling for that today, we have invited Kathy Wylde, who is the president and CEO of the New York City Partnership and president of the Chamber of Commerce — thanks, Cathy, for being with us tonight.

KATHRYN WYLDE, NYC PARTNERSHIP & CHAMBER OF COMM.: Thank you, Alan, and thank you for calling attention to the pain that continues.

KEYES: Well, I think it's very important. Can you tell us a little bit about, not only what this day has meant, but what the effort has been like to try to get past it and begin to rebuild the foundations of life in New York?

WYLDE: Well, for those of us who are in New York, and particularly who live and work in Lower Manhattan, it has been a process where it was shock. It was almost an unreal experience to go through the attack and the immediate aftermath. And I think then we went through a process of disbelief and then grief. And now, we're struggling with the effort to recover and bring back our town and our spirit. But it has been a very difficult time.

KEYES: Well, what are some of the challenges that are now involved in that recovery effort? I mean, we see pictures of the efforts that are being made with the digging out of ground zero and the recovery of bodies and things of this kind. But in the whole surrounding area, this has had a devastating impact. What is that like, and what's being done to try to bounce back from it?

WYLDE: Well, I think in specific terms, the attack left about an $83 billion hole in our economy. Prior to September 11, Lower Manhattan was the nation's third largest business district, after Midtown Manhattan and Chicago. On September 11, we lost about a third of downtown. We lost over 100,000 jobs, workers that were downtown. We lost about 30 million square feet of office space. Just to put that in perspective for you, the number of workers is about the same as the entire work force of Houston. The square footage we lost is about the size of the whole Milwaukee — downtown Milwaukee business district. So we lost a huge part of our city and our downtown.

KEYES: Now, in the wake of something like this, as one looks to the future, how hard is it to get folks, after being this hard hit, to look at that part of the city and say, I'm going to go there and live, I'm going to go there and work and re-establish what is in a way the spiritual psychological basis for coming back?

WYLDE: It has been very mixed. I think for people with young children that were downtown — living downtown when this happened it was hardest. About half the people who live downtown walked to work. So there was a double hit on those families, and many of their children were in school locally. It has been very difficult for many to go back, and a number of families are not moving back into their apartments and are struggling with what they're going to do next in terms of their lives. It's very difficult.

And in terms of the employees, there are number of folks, not only downtown, but people who are concerned about the now what has become the reality we live with, which is the possibly of a second attack.

KEYES: Yes.

WYLDE: And that is in the back of the minds of everybody who is dealing with this issue in New York.

KEYES: So there would be a natural concern, a natural apprehension about that. Do you find that there's also bitterness, anger that has to be struggled with at a time like this?

WYLDE: It's interesting. I think — I've talked to people around the country and the world, and it seems the farther away you get from ground zero, the more anger is the reaction. I think in New York, it's not anger. It is grief.

KEYES: Yes, that would be natural, because the loss — the personal loss has been greatest there. As you look to the future now, what do you think is going to be the result? Obviously, you have got money involved. You've got the effort psychologically to get people living and working again in this part of the city. What, in your mind, is going to be the most fitting monument and memorial to those who died on that day?

WYLDE: Well, I think the silver lining of this tragedy has been that New Yorkers have come together, and Americans have come together. Many of us have said this is the first time that New York has been willing to admit we're part of America, and America has been willing to admit that New Yorkers are...

KEYES: Oh, that's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) exaggerating. I love New York. So does everybody else.

WYLDE: But I think that this has been, in that sense, it has been a great catalyzing affect on New York in terms of bringing people here together. People are absolutely committed to fight for the regaining of our economy, to help people get their jobs back who have lost their jobs, which is over 100,000 people just last year. We are still lagging the rest of the country in the area of tourism, in retail activities. Our economy is suffering beyond — above and beyond the recession. But we see a positive future. President Bush, the administration, Congress have been terrific. We have received economic aid over and above the normal emergency management that folks receive in a natural disaster.

KEYES: Right.

WYLDE: Because this disaster was much more intense.

KEYES: Well, I think it has certainly affected the minds and hearts of people. I think most of us feel as if we were there. And part of what I was trying to do tonight, and I'm glad that you came to help us out, is to recapture that sense that we are living, in fact, and working and grieving and struggling to come back with all the people who are there. And I hope you realize that in our prayers and in our hearts, we are with you.

And one of the things that's informing, but we'll be trying to do on the show tonight, is also to get a sense. I think that something that would produce this kind of impact has to come from a place of almost incomprehensively infinite evil and wickedness. And we're going to try to take a look at what that might be in our next segment, “People Just Like You.” And obviously is it people just like us who were affected by this.

Later, we're going to get to what's on your mind. You can call at 1-866-keyes-usa — that's K-E-Y-E-S-U-S-A. Our e-mail, AlanKeyes@msnbc.com — keep those e-mails coming. And you can join our online discussion, which continues as we speak, at chat.msnbc.com.

Kathy Wylde, thank you so much. Our prayers and our hearts are with you — we'll be right back. We have come to that portion of the show we call “People Just Like You.” And that's what we gather here. These are not professional pundits, not folks who have their axes to grind and are constantly up in front of you, and not that I'm demeaning anybody there. We have some very bright folks who do that on a regular basis on all the different networks. But these are folks who are just brought from different walks of life to come together with me here and try to think things through and make sense of some of the challenges we face.

We have with us today, Stan Dean. He is a theatre director and producer. He's also a retired high school English Teacher. Jean Weinberg is a Georgetown University student, and the Reverend Joe Watkins is with the Christ Evangelical Lutheran Church in Philadelphia — welcome, everyone.

KEYES: And thank you for taking the time to come and chat with me today. What I'd like to do right off the bat, we have been seeing in the last few minutes some reminders of the horrific damage that was done to the people of New York, the lives that were taken, to this country on September 11. But I want to ask each of you a question here. We talk about the evil that struck us. From your vantage point and your mind and your heart, what was the evil that hit us that day? What was the nature of it? What lay at the heart of it? What would you say to that?

STAN DEEN, THEATRE DIRECTOR/PRODUCER: For me, I think the fact that it was premeditated — that this was not something that just occurred, but a group of human beings knew that they were going to board planes and actually go right into the Towers or into the Pentagon.

KEYES: So it's kind of the cold-blooded, self-conscious aspect of it...

DEEN: Yes. Yes.

KEYES: ... that really struck you. Jean, what would you say?

JEAN WEINBERG, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY STUDENT: For me, it was the innocent lives that were lost. The people that went to work one day and couldn't say goodbye to anyone and for no reason, no fault of their own, were not engaged in a war, but almost became involved. And for me, it's really the loss of that innocent life.

KEYES: So the innocent lives that were just kind of cut off without warning...

WEINBERG: Right. No (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of their own, so...

KEYES: ... on that day. Reverend Joe, what would you say?

REV. JOE WATKINS, CHRIST EVANGELICAL LUTHERAN CHURCH: Well, I'd say that life is really a gift. It really is a gift from God, and any time anybody takes innocent lives, that's absolutely evil. And that's what happened. And in my case, there is a personal side. I had three siblings — I have five siblings. I have three sisters and two brothers, but two — both of our brothers and one of my sisters were directly impacted by what happened in New York. And one brother was in World Trade 7, and another sister was in Liberty Plaza, and thank God, they all managed to survive. But that's evil. What happened was absolute evil.

KEYES: See, I think that's fascinating, because sometimes when we are looking at the images, as we just were, and seeing the devastation, we might get confused, because of the magnitude of this and think that somehow or another it was the bigness of it. You know, the big buildings came down, and the enormous loss of life. But in fact, there is a threat that runs through it that whether it was big or small, it still confronts us, I think, with — well, I think of it as the principle of this, the principle of the evil that struck out against it.

Because after all, there have been other times in history when there has been a lot of massive destruction, right? And one of them that naturally occurs to me, in the context of our own background in America, is Hiroshima. But would you say that Hiroshima, Nagasaki is anything like what we witnessed as a result? Even though the physical damage might have been larger, even the lives lost were larger. And yet, to say that there was an evil involved in it, would it be right to do that?

WATKINS: Well, I'd say Pearl Harbor was analogous to what happened on September 11. That was a sneak attack, and that, again, was the loss of innocent life. What happened on September 11 was awful. I mean, had it been done on the battlefield, had there been a declaration of war by our enemies, that would have been different. But this was a sneak attack, and the people that were killed were regular folks, innocent people, people who were going to work, who were doing their job who were trying to do their business.

WEINBERG: And I think the loss of life — our tolerance for loss of life in terms of innocent people going to work vs. people who are in the military, and even the reaction of the Pentagon was different than that at the World Trade Center. In terms of people taking that a lot more to heart, regular people were just going to work vs. people who were engaged in military battle, and people who almost — not that we expect them to lose their life, but know that that is part of, you know, what could happen.

KEYES: It's interesting, because what seems to be running through all of the comments, and it keeps coming up over and over, naturally obviously, is this word “innocent.” Fascinating word. Does anybody here know what the root of innocence is, where it comes from? It's a fascinating word, and it's a little bit — well, it's expected and yet unexpected. As I recall, the root of that word is “nocere,” which is a Latin word meaning like noxious. We get the word noxious from, and it means to harm something. So what is an innocent person? An innocent person is a harmless person...

DEEN: Yes.

KEYES: ... somebody who had done nobody any harm. And the key to understanding what hit us that day, as I hear you all talking about it, it seems to be this innocence.

DEEN: Oh, yes.

KEYES: If somebody hits you first, and you hit back, that's one thing. If they give you fair warning, and you're going to war, that's one thing. But out of the blue to just stomp on innocent folks, it seems that there is a special quality of wrongness and wickedness in that. Wouldn't you say?

WEINBERG: I would agree.

KEYES: And it strikes me that one of the symbols of that in our life has always been, and it's the one to mind most poignantly. Think of a terrorist or somebody like this goes out and they blow up a bus. If they tell you that it was a bus full of tourists — adult tourists, that's one thing. If they tell you it was a bus full of schoolchildren, that's something entirely different, isn't it?

DEEN: Yes, yes.

WEINBERG: I think our tolerance for loss of mothers and children is somewhat different than, you know, regular folks and/or people in the military. I think it's a completely — I think we have more compassion. You know, knowing that children lost their parents, you know, that's something that really hits home.

WATKINS: ... life is a gift, Alan, and also from a spiritual standpoint, life is really a gift from God. And we aren't guaranteed a single day. I think if September 11 taught us anything, it taught us just how little we are guaranteed. We aren't guaranteed a single day. We aren't guaranteed tomorrow or next week, even though we make plans as if next week is promised to us. We really aren't guaranteed that time.

KEYES: Stan?

DEEN: Well, I was going to say I, probably being the oldest one here, I remember back my parents talking about the blitz on London and killing and the fact that in Word War II there were like 22 million people eradicated; 50 percent of those being civilians. I was a small child, and I remember watching films like “Saving Private Ryan” and “Schindler's List,” and I'm thinking I was the age of those children. And I have to tell you, we had air raids, I remember vividly. It scared the daylights out of me.

KEYES: Well, now tell me something though, because and here is something that unfortunately given the way my mind works, it's going to occur to me (UNINTELLIGIBLE), because we talk about this, and this was an evil that struck us from outside. And we'll say to ourselves, that's incomprehensible and so forth. But what do we know about this?

And as I sit here and talk, and the children who are the symbol of that innocence for us, we really seem to sum up that innocence. And well, we're talking as if, well, that's terrible evil taking the lives of children. How can we do this? And we really speak as if we know nothing about it. But do you want to know the truth, this is my opinion? I think that's actually false and phony in America today. I'll be honest with you. Because I think sadly, Americans know a lot about this, and we just won't admit it to ourselves. See?

And what do I mean? Well, what I mean ought to be obvious. Today is January 22, right?

DEEN: Yes.

KEYES: It is the anniversary of the decision Roe vs. Wade, and which our Supreme Court decided that we have the right, not just to take the lives of children, but to take the lives of our own children, and to do so, if it's convenient and convenient (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I mean, what have they done? They are innocent, just like those people sitting in the World Trade Center. As innocent as you can possibly get, because you haven't been around yet to do anybody any harm. And this is one of those things that really deeply, forcible strikes me, because we act as if we couldn't possibly comprehend this.

But the fact that we do at one level comprehend it, because aren't we tolerating ourselves something that reflects the very same principle of evil — Jean?

WEINBERG: I wouldn't put a woman's right to choose on the same wave length as victims of terrorism. I don't think you can put them on the same plate.

KEYES: No, but see, people always say the right to choose. This is the way we talk about it. But what are we choosing? What are we choosing?

WEINBERG: We are choosing whether or not we want to have that child.

KEYES: No. Whether or not we want to have that child, and the consequence of that choice is what? We are actually choosing to do what with that child?

WEINBERG: I don't believe that a fetus in a woman's womb is the same equivalent as a grown adult who has a wife, a husband, a child, whatever it may be, I don't think you can put that on the same (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

KEYES: Reverend Joe?

WATKINS: Well, it's interesting, you know, my wife and I have been married for 27 years. And we just had our first grandchild. Our daughter and her husband, my son-in-law, Mark Portlock (ph) and my daughter, Courtney Portlock (ph), just had our first grandchild, a little boy, Mark, Jr., who was 8 pounds and 3 ounces when he was born on January 5. And to see the miracle of life, to see him come into this world, to see him in my daughter's womb, and to see the pictures of him in my daughter's womb as he grew over the months, to see him sucking his thumb in my daughter's stomach. And I was so very...

KEYES: It's (UNINTELLIGIBLE), but that would mean that you're suggesting that that is a person, and that you responded to it as you would respond to somebody sitting at a desk in the World Trade Center.

WATKINS: I used to rub my daughter's stomach and talk to my grandson.

KEYES: Stan — Stan, what (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

DEEN: From my perspective, I am single, so I've never had that experience. But teaching school, my biggest — the biggest thing for me was seeing young people who were brought into this world and so many being abandoned, like 400,000 like in 1996 when I retired of young people that needed love. They needed care. And nobody wanted them. And I was teaching in a rather rural community, and I would look at these young people, and I'm thinking, where are their dads? Where are their moms?

KEYES: See, the thing that I wonder about, because we look at the hard heartedness. You're talking to giving the cold-blooded nature of the terrorist action and just targeting innocent people and so forth and so on. But in a certain sense, we have adopted a language of euphemism, like the people who want to call terrorists “freedom fighters” and talk about that action they took against the United States. And (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Jean, the right to choose is a camouflage.

WEINBERG: I don't think of it...

KEYES: It keeps us from talking about the simple fact that what we are choosing to do is to take a life, just like Osama bin Laden chose, on the basis of his believe that we're wicked people, that our life degrades and that it somehow in that degradation threatens his way. That's his argument. These aren't really people we have to take account of, and therefore, we can kill them. Honestly, aren't we saying...

WEINBERG: I'm not saying I'm pro-abortion.

KEYES: But wait a minute. Aren't we saying about these children in the womb that these are not people we have to take account of, and therefore, we can take their lives?

WEINBERG: No, I mean, I think it's great Reverend Joe had this positive experience.

WATKINS: Well, I've also had three children, but my wife (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

WEINBERG: I agree and that's great, and maybe you had the economic stability. You had the other stability. You had a nice home to bring the child up in. I think we overlook these cases where these children are better off perhaps, you know...

KEYES: But don't you think — but let me raise it (UNINTELLIGIBLE), because I know we don't like to listen to the voice of the evil that has struck us. But it's not as if Osama bin Laden says, all those nice people in America and I killed them. No! What he said is all those people living in the midst of sin and degradation and corruption, whose lives don't have the quality spiritually and morally that justifies their existence, and since their existence is not of the quality he believes is necessary under his fanatical views, he is going to come kill innocent people. And we say that's different, that's terrible. How is it different from saying that this life in the womb doesn't have the quality which demands our respect? How is it different?

DEEN: But, Alan, didn't he always say that he heard this from Allah. Allah told him to do this.

KEYES: But see, but I think that's irrelevant. It doesn't matter where the injunction to violate the dignity of another comes from. The result is quite simple. Based on my sense that your life is unworthy, I am going to kill you. And he said that to our innocent people in the World Trade Center. But aren't we saying that to our innocent children in the womb? Aren't we saying that our right to choose means that we can take the same approach, basically, that he does, devalue their lives and snuff them out?

And that's why I say, we pretend we're unfamiliar, that we were suddenly introduced to this evil, as our president suggested at one point on September 11. But I think we're lying to ourselves.

WATKINS: Alan, I'd love to respond to Jean. I know that you are sincere, and I know this is an issue that's been so greatly publicized and that people are on both sides of the aisle and banging heads. And let me share with you. You have mentioned about...

KEYES: Reverend, I have to stop there, because this has been wonderful, and I appreciate...

WATKINS: Is our time up already?

KEYES: No, I appreciate the honesty — well...

WATKINS: Are you going to (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

KEYES: I appreciate the honesty that y'all have brought to this discussion, because I knew that this was going to be hard today. That I was taking a turn into something difficult for us...

DEEN: Yes.

KEYES: ... difficult not only — for all of us. But I think that one of the things we're going to have to realize, if we want to be strong over the course of the years that I think this struggle is going to take, then I think we're going to have to do some examining of our own lives and consciences to find that kind of consistency that will allow us to face this evil without a sense of our ambiguity. I think in this Guantanamo business and other things that ambiguity is starting to emerge.

I really appreciate it, y'all. Thank you so much for joining with me today. As I said before we started, I didn't think we were going to have a whole lot of fun today, but I thought we might do some good, and I think we did.

We'll be back right after this with Dr. James Dobson. We're going to have a little chat on “The Bottom Line” — stay tuned.

KEYES: Now we get to “The Bottom Line.” In the course of the program, we started out taking a fresh look at the horrors of September 11th and talking with my guests in the “People Just Like You” segment about the nature of the evil that struck us, the theme running through the whole thing: that conscious targeting of innocent human life.

And then I introduced what is in my heart, which is the thought that at the end of the day, that targeting of human life is not something we're totally unfamiliar with, because here at home in the controversial issue of abortion, we confront the reality of a sanction given to something that in principle involves, in my view. the same: targeting of innocent human life. Joining us now to talk about that is Dr. James Dobson, familiar to a lot of you, I know, as the founder and head of Focus on the Family and of a very popular radio program by the same name, someone I've known over the course of years and have often told people Dr. Dobson is one of those folks who not only do I admire, but Jim, as I've often told you, when I am considering my own actions and activities, you are one of those people who is a standard in my mind of what I believe to be the integrity we need to bring to important questions of moral truth that we confront.

I want to thank you for joining me on the show, especially on a day like this when in the context of America's confrontation with the evil of September 11th, we pause to remember the decision, Roe v. Wade, and what I deeply believe to be the evil involved in it. Do you think that seeing that common principle in these evils is a stretch?

DR. JAMES C. DOBSON, FOCUS ON THE FAMILY FOUNDER: Well, Alan, first of all, let me congratulate you on your new show, and thank you for having me as a guest. I have great respect for you and I'm delighted that MSNBC has given you this platform. I've been watching the show here as I've been waiting, and I've been fascinated by the things that you're saying, especially your use of that word “evil.”

You know, we've gotten away from that. In recent years, we've kind of bought into the post-modern notion that there is no right or wrong, there is no truth, there is no immorality or morality, there's no good or bad. And it turns out that after September the 11th, we've discovered again, what do you know? Some things are evil. And we should have known it all along. And what's evil about what happened — and your guests said this — what is evil about it is not the loss of those beautiful buildings or that our economy has suffered or that our planes have been grounded. What is evil is the loss of human life. And the reason is because of the sanctity of human life. And I believe in that.

KEYES: Well, do you think that folks are willing to take a hard look, though, at that principle, because running through the whole discussion in the group that joined us was the concept that we just don't have the right out of the blue consciously to target for your own purpose innocent life, the life of the harmless, especially we discovered, the life of children, people who have been throughout history our type of representatives of the innocent human being, the one that you don't have the right to harm. And yet, it is taken for granted in ways that use all kinds of language that somehow or another, this practice of abortion doesn't fall under that principle. Why do you think it's so hard for people to see that, in point of fact, these two things involve the same principle of evil?

DOBSON: Alan, I'm not sure we want to see it. I mean, the facts are there. Just today, I was considering some of the scope of what has happened since the Roe v. Wade decision. January the 22nd, 1973 to today, 29 years exactly, 102 million people, 102 million Americans have been born and 41 million have been aborted. The scope of that is incredible. Twenty-eight percent of this generation, the Roe v. Wade generation, has been destroyed. They never got a chance. That's evil. That is wicked.

KEYES: And I would think — because one of the things that came out in the discussion, of course, about New York was the fact that the human cost of this is the physical lives lost but also the terrible void that is left in the lives of families, in the life of the nation, in the life of the community, and we can appreciate that. But in a sense that I think we find it harder to appreciate, there's actually a terrible void left by all those millions of Americans who never got here and who's contributions we will never be able to appreciate because we gave this sanction to a practice that eliminated their lives even before they started. Isn't there a kind of hard heartedness involved in that unwillingness to see what we're doing to ourselves?

DOBSON: Yeah. Part of the tragedy, again, is what it's done to the rest of us. There's been a callous effect on the rest of the culture. You know, when — you'll pardon me if I give you an illustration and a name, but Senator Barbara Boxer from California stood on the floor of the Senate and talked about the fact that a baby was not a baby, was not human, could be killed until taken home from the hospital so that it's up to the parents even after that baby has been born to decide whether they're going to let that child live or not.

Now we wouldn't have said something like that — certainly a U.S. senator would not have said it — in 1973. But we have become immune to this killing. Partial-birth abortion, if people had to watch that, Alan, their knees would buckle. It is so horrible to see a full-term baby murdered, and yet we've come to the point where we don't want to think about it.

KEYES: One of the things we hide behind, though, is the notion that somehow or another, this is not human life and we don't consider it human life, and we don't consider it worthy of our attention. What bothers me, what really disturbs me about that is that it kind of takes back the judgment that in the course of our history from its beginning, we actually felt to be in the hands of God. Our founders said that we are all of us created equal and endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights. We acknowledge that it was by God's authority that human beings get their dignity, not by a human decision. And that means that whether it's me or you or a mother deciding about her child or whether it's Osama bin Laden applying the fanatical standards of his moral puritanism and so forth, we don't have the right on the basis of our judgment to withdraw that respect from other human beings because we consider them somehow not of the right status or not of the right quality or not quite human enough for us. But through abortion and that doctrine, we seem to be taking back the right to make these kinds of judgments about other human beings.

DOBSON: Yeah. If the life is inconvenient, we can get rid of it and tell ourselves that it's not human. You know that it is a $25,000 fine to kill an eagle's egg? I mean, an egg is not an eagle, and yet, it is protected because it is a small eagle. And yet it is not an offense against anybody, according to the law and the Supreme Court, to kill a baby in the process of being delivered. And as long as he's got one toe in the birth canal, he's not human. I mean, this is a contradiction here.

KEYES: Do you think — and of the things that tragedy often does is it softens the heart and it opens us to the grief and pain that then leads us to look at our own lives differently. Do you think that America is likely to look at the tragedy we perpetrate against our own offsprings in a different light given the terrible evil that was brought on us by a hand that showed this kind of callous disregard for innocent life?

DOBSON: Well, I do. It's had a profound effect on us in many, many ways, and it may be years before we fully understand what it's done to us. There are changes going on. The polls show this, that right now, Alan — and you won't read this in any newspaper, none that I've seen but the polls show — 61 percent of American women say abortion is murder. Sixty-one percent.

KEYES: Well, I think that hearts have been affected by the terrible tragedy, hearts can change. And I continue to pray myself for a change in the heart of America. Dr. Dobson, thank you so much for joining me tonight. It was a special privilege for me to have you as a guest in my first week and on this program in particular for us to share some thoughts with folks about the meaning of this day. And thank you so much for joining me.

DOBSON: Thank you, Alan.

KEYES: Later, I'll be — you're welcome. Later, I'm going to tell all of you what's on my mind, and I want to hear what's on yours. But first, does this make sense? There's some folks who have decided that it might be appropriate to start suing companies and producers of junk food and other sorts of things because it makes them fat. I think that could lead to a whole change in the legal industry. You'd have to have legal specialists for the chocolatiers, the pastry makers. Instead of advertisements for people who are injury lawyers, there'll be personal gluttony lawyers. Now I've gained about 50 pounds myself in the course of the last 20 years of my marriage. I guess I'll have to sue my wife for that. Does that make sense?

KEYES: We've come to that portion of the program that we call “On Your Mind,” because we're looking at some of the things that came in over the electronic medium through e-mail and other things. We'll be taking some calls. Do you realize that between yesterday and today, we got something like 2,300 e-mails in response to yesterday's show? And in the segment, “On My Mind,” I'm going to be talking to you about one of the serious controversies that emerged in those e-mails. But first, let's get to some of the phone calls and then some of the e-mails that came in today.

Let's go to Maureen in Hawaii. Welcome to the Alan Keyes show.

MAUREEN: Yes, hello. Can you hear me?

KEYES: Yes, I can.

MAUREEN: Mr. Keyes, I just wanted to say how glad I am you're on the air. I've heard your opening program and am thrilled to have the opportunity to take advantage of your knowledge on the Constitution and other topics. Regarding the topic of evil, it's clear that you know that our founding fathers were Christian to a man. And personally, I believe that evil thrives in a void created by our people and our leaders not seeking the will of God, whether it be in our country or others. In our country, I'm so glad to see our President Bush encouraging us to go back to prayer and would ask if you don't think the removal of prayer and the 10 commandments from our schools and the public arena has had a negative impact contributing to our being impacted by the evils such as which occurred on September 11th. And I have one other question if you have time.

KEYES: Well, actually, I personally do believe that. I believe it strongly. I think that removing prayer from the schools and in that way interfering with what ought to be the prerogative of communities to have schools that reflect the faith and values of the parents who send children to those schools is a grave error both in moral terms and I think in terms of what we've been doing with education. Maureen, thank you so much for your call. Really appreciate it.

Let's go to K.C. in California. Welcome to MAKING SENSE. K.C., are you with us?

K.C.: Yes, I am.

KEYES: Welcome.

K.C.: Yes, I think my problem is I was born an orphan, and my question is: Why aren't men made more responsible for the children that they produce with women?

KEYES: Well, you know, I think that that's one — in my opinion, that's one of the unintended consequences of the abortion mentality, because in order to make the false argument that supports abortion, we have really had to ask that if the child in the womb is simply somehow the property of the mother. And that has totally excluded the father from the picture. That means that in a sense, the father is suddenly supposed to become responsible after the child is born when we have in essence written him out of the picture in terms of the child from the moment of conception. It just doesn't make any sense, I'd say. But I do think it has devalued the proper understanding of the father's participation in that child's life and it has devastating impact. Thank you for your call.

I'm going to go to some of the e-mails that we got. Now we got a lot of them, so we obviously aren't going to be able to cover too many, but I love representative samples. Gene writes, “You disenfranchise many of your conservative listeners by opposing legal and constitutional military tribunals.”

Well, I have to confess I kind of think myself as conservative partly because I care so much about the Constitution, and that's why I raised the issue that I did about the military tribunals. I think a lot of our founders would have raised similar issues.

Robert writes from New York, “I agree with your comments last night on the World Trade Center statue. I remember seeing people being led from the site of that horrible event of 9-11 covered completely with dust. You couldn't tell if they were black or white and nobody cared.”

Let's go to Eli from New Jersey who writes, “I tried to watch the show but had to turn it off. You have guests on and you don't let them speak. If you time how much you spoke versus your guests, you will find you spoke much longer, constantly repeating yourself and offering nothing new after the first comments. I would be really surprised if your show makes it. Regards.”

Well, that proves you can't please all of the people all the time. But one of the things I will try to do on this show, as that famous song goes, is since you can't please everybody, you've got to please yourself. And I'll do my best at that.

Thank you for your calls and e-mails. Next, I'm going to tell you what's on my mind. Stay tuned. We've got a controversy raging in the e- mail as a result of last night's show. You'll want to hear about it.

KEYES: Tomorrow on MAKING SENSE, capital punishment. Thursday, Tolkien versus Potter. Take a look at some of the great fantasy movies that have been so popular.

Now what's “On My Mind.” We got about 2,300 or e-mails last count, and the controversy has raged back and forth out of last night's show. And I want to tell you quite frankly that of the 2,300 e-mails, about 25 reflected the serious issue of military tribunals. All of the rest were about my sweater. Yeah, you find that hard to believe. That is a little joke. But nonetheless, everybody has an opinion. Some people are for it, some people are against it. And I just want to make perfectly clear to you that the sweater that I wear in the B block, all of you are entitled to have whatever opinion you like about this sweater. You're entitled to express it in your e-mails. You're entitled to tell me about it in your phone calls. I just want you to be clear about one thing. You're entitled to whatever opinion you believe so long as you realize that it's going to have absolutely no effect on my actions.

You see, I have worn this sweater. It was a gift from my family in 1994, I love this sweater. It has been of great comfort to me. And as I often tell people, you'll get me out of this sweater when you pry it from my cold dead hands. That's my sense of it. See you tomorrow.